Israel - Page 6 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Polls on politics, news, current affairs and history.

Where do you stand regarding Israel, the Israeli-Arab conflict, etc?

I am pro Israel (generally support, strongly support, slightly support or have sympathy for Israel)
29
30%
I am anti-Israel (Generally oppose, strongly oppose or dislike\hate Israel)
41
42%
I am neither for or against Israel (apathetic, don't care, don't have a firm opinion)
21
21%
Other
7
7%
User avatar
By Nets
#1420927
Laz:

Israel is an appartheid system. Their whole policy for decades has been to displace the muslim population there.


Don't forget there are (were?) also Christian Palestinians, who in turn the Muslims are driving out of the territories.

And unless you can concretely back up the Apartheid claim, don't use it. Israel is a full democracy with equal political rights for Jews and Arabs. There are Arab members of Knesset, Arab ministers and Arab doctors and lawyers. Israel has freedom of religion, and the only growing Christian population in the Middle East. Sound like Apartheid?

Foreign jews were moving there since the 1870s in big numbers. Most jews are of khazar origin, not israeli origin.


Which radical Islamic site did you pull that gem off of?

That today's Jews are Turkic/Khazarian and not Middle-Eastern has been roundly discredited.

Check out http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/12/6769 from the National Academy of Sciences.

"Haplotypes constructed from Y-chromosome markers were used to trace the paternal origins of the Jewish Diaspora. A set of 18 biallelic polymorphisms was genotyped in 1,371 males from 29 populations, including 7 Jewish (Ashkenazi, Roman, North African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian) and 16 non-Jewish groups from similar geographic locations. The Jewish populations were characterized by a diverse set of 13 haplotypes that were also present in non-Jewish populations from Africa, Asia, and Europe. A series of analyses was performed to address whether modern Jewish Y-chromosome diversity derives mainly from a common Middle Eastern source population or from admixture with neighboring non-Jewish populations during and after the Diaspora. Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level. Admixture estimates suggested low levels of European Y-chromosome gene flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities. A multidimensional scaling plot placed six of the seven Jewish populations in a relatively tight cluster that was interspersed with Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations, including Palestinians and Syrians. Pairwise differentiation tests further indicated that these Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations were not statistically different. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."

This is why I do not support israel.


Sorry to burst your bubble, but find a new reason. Jews are native to Israel.

Also, what creeps me out is the jewish anti-semitism and belief that they are the top class and deserve anything that falls on their minds. I have been in contact with strong supporters of Israel, and at a time supported them too... what shocks me now is their racist view on the muslim minority (formerly a majority) in the country.


I admit there are several racists amongst the Jewish camp and they revolt me. But remember, it is far easier being a Muslim in Israel than a Jew in _______ [Insert Arab/Muslim country here].

We hardly think we are "top class" and deserve more than anyone else. All we want is some respect and a scrap of land to call our own.

The jews claim that forces want to wipe them off the map... yet they don't look at their own actions...


Here is just one of the many quotes by Arabs about wiping us off the map:

“The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear - to wipe Israel off the map” - President Aref of Iraq, 1967


And there are far more where that came from. Israelis are paranoid, yes, but the paranoia arises from real world events.

Image
By sploop!
#1420978
We hardly think we are "top class" and deserve more than anyone else. All we want is some respect and a scrap of land to call our own.


It's not my decision to make, but given the history, and the time that has passed, I would imagine it might be difficult (but not impossible) to get agreement to that. It wouldn't completely end the violence, but it might at least reduce it to a considerable degree. However, I suspect Israel would have to make concessions it would find impossible to make - maybe things like falling back to state boundaries such as those suggested by the League of Nations all those years ago, prior to the war. It is going to be necessary for Palestine to be a viable state...

The thing is, although Israel sees the countries around it as 'Arab', they are, in fact, seperate countries with their own disputes and disagreements and history. This dispute is not going to simply go away by means of some Arabs agreeing to absorb some other Arabs. It isn't (as you know) that simple. Israel needs to find a way to coexist with its neighbours if it is to survive. Rampant nationalism, and a continuing land-grab is not helping one bit...
User avatar
By Nets
#1421175
maybe things like falling back to state boundaries such as those suggested by the League of Nations all those years ago, prior to the war


You mean these 1922 League of Nations borders for the Jewish Homeland?

Image

Yes, those borders would solve a lot of problems but I think the Arabs would object.

More seriously, the Arabs should realize by now that this isn't best 2 of 3. They had a chance to accept the partition borders in 1947 and rejected. They had a chance to recognize the 49 Armistice Lines for 18 years, and rejected. Sorry, too late, the more they reject the smaller Palestine will be.

The thing is, although Israel sees the countries around it as 'Arab', they are, in fact, seperate countries with their own disputes and disagreements and history.


Yes, the Arab States around Israel have disputes between their petty Tyrannic governments, but different history and culture? I'd disagree with that. Pan-Arabism is not that long dead, almost no Arab disagrees with it in theory, only how it should play out.

This dispute is not going to simply go away by means of some Jews agreeing to give up some land from what meagre reserves they already have. It isn't (as you know) that simple. Palestine needs to find a way to coexist with its neighbours if it is to survive. Rampant nationalism, and continuing terrorism and rejection-ism is not helping one bit...
User avatar
By LAz
#1422008
And unless you can concretely back up the Apartheid claim, don't use it. Israel is a full democracy with equal political rights for Jews and Arabs.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegation ... _apartheid

That link has loads of information. In fact information oozes out wherever you look. Blacks in South Africa were what Muslims were in those territories.




We have many genes. I think it's fair to say that it matters what type of gene we look at. They did not look at all of them. At any rate, true israeli jews are dark in color... look at the average jew, they're white.


Jews are native to Israel.


Look at what percentage of the jewish population in Israel are new-comers.

But remember, it is far easier being a Muslim in Israel than a Jew in _______ [Insert Arab/Muslim country here].


I do not think that there is much of a problem for Jews in lets say Iran, as thousands continue to live there in peace. Furthermore, why compare Israel with them? Why not compare it with some countries who are more better when it comes to western notions of human rights.


We hardly think we are "top class" and deserve more than anyone else. All we want is some respect and a scrap of land to call our own.


So you get that and still want more, and so you guys continually push out muslims.


The Jewish torah and the books that explain it -Gemara/Talmud - forbid a jewish state until hashem returns. The problem is that most jews are reformist jews and so they have turned their back on the torah. The true jews, the orthodox ones, did not support the re-creation of Israel. It's against the jewish culture/religion.




Your map is very biased. The muslims in central asia are not really practicing islam very much. I am sure that Western Sahara plays a big role too... sarcasm in that sentence, 'cause it is for the most part an insignificant piece of land.





Which radical Islamic site did you pull that gem off of?


Forgot to answer the first part there.
They're called population censuses. Take 1922, 1931... other dates too... we see a BOOM in the jewish population.

I am not gonna grab my book now, 'cause I'm gonna go sleep, but it's called "Blaming the Victims". It is by Edward Said I think. Anyways, it explains a lot. It mentions a book called From Time Immemoria, which is a jewish book which misquotes many sources, and downright lies in order to make it seem like the palestinians are recent migrants. The Jews made that their book of the year. Such fraud is criminal, and the Jews label that as the book of the year.
By sploop!
#1422043
Sorry, too late, the more they reject the smaller Palestine will be. NetsNJFan87


That's hardly an attitude to foster peaceful relations. In fact, it looks guaranteed to cause more bombings....
User avatar
By Falleen Prince Xizor
#1422050
anti-israel based on humanitarian concerns.

Palestine is a state, power outages, threat to basic sanitation and water supply...

this is where an eye for an eye gets you....

Sploop! wrote:In fact, it looks guaranteed to cause more bombings....


that will make a change, I guess.
User avatar
By Riddle Of Steel
#1422055
We have many genes. I think it's fair to say that it matters what type of gene we look at. They did not look at all of them. At any rate, true israeli jews are dark in color... look at the average jew, they're white.


Over half of Israel's Jews are dark-skinned (put Mizrahi, Sephardi and Ethiopian Jews together and the Ashkenazim are the minority).

Look at what percentage of the jewish population in Israel are new-comers.


If a Pole is born in North America, Poland still remains his ancestral homeland. If an Aboriginal is born in Europe, Australia is still his ancestral homeland.

The Jewish torah and the books that explain it -Gemara/Talmud - forbid a jewish state until hashem returns. The problem is that most jews are reformist jews and so they have turned their back on the torah. The true jews, the orthodox ones, did not support the re-creation of Israel. It's against the jewish culture/religion.


They have to wait till HaShem returns? When did he leave?

Back in the day, many Jews, both Orthodox and Reform were anti-Zionist. They said things were going splendidly in Europe and there was no need to return to Zion. Then that whole Holocaust thing happened.

As far as I know, most of the leading Zionists were secular - neither Orthodox nor Reform.

And as someone who considers himself theologically a Reform Jew, I disagree with your statement that Reform Jews turned their back on the Torah. The early ones in 1800s Germany, maybe. But Reform Jews of today still consider the Torah a holy book and practice Judaism faithfully (it may not be as traditionalist as Orthodoxy, but at its core it's still Judaism).

I notice that because of Neutari Karta, or however you spell it, people seem to think Orthodox Jews oppose Israel. Firstly, those black-clad bearded men in 17th century Polish/Russian garb are Chasidic Jews, not mainstream Orthodox Jews. And of these Chasidic Jews, these anti-Israel NK fellows are a minority. The vast majority of religious Jews support Israel and that's a fact.

BTW, would you mind posting these passages that forbid a Jewish state?
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#1422059
Image

I think this map underscores the major tragedy that Israel and other European colonization projects and actions have had on this large region.
User avatar
By Oxymoron
#1422138
Qatz your the major tragedy of European colonization. I mean why not go back to France, you stole Montreal from native Americans go back to where you came from.
User avatar
By Nets
#1422205
Qatz your the major tragedy of European colonization. I mean why not go back to France, you stole Montreal from native Americans go back to where you came from.


Nice try Oxy. Imperialism only exists in the third person with Qatz, you should know that.

And Qatz, how do you figure Syria as a U.S. ally?
User avatar
By aaker
#1442591
I am pro-Israeli and pro Palestinian. It's not a f****ng football match.
User avatar
By War Angel
#1443053
I am pro-Israeli and pro Palestinian. It's not a f****ng football match.

You're right, it's not. Actually opposing the other team in a football match is stupid. It should be in everyone's best interest to see a good and interesting game, regardless of who wins.

But the Israelis' and the Arabs' interests are not shared. They almost always collide. You can be pro both in the sense that you want both sides to be happy and safe.. but there comes a time when you must take sides.
By Subliminal
#1445241
Please note - this is not a poll to test if you support Israel or the Arabs, just if you support or oppose Israel.


Needless to say that I support the State of Israel. It's facinating how the small country developed itself since the first Aliyah. I really admire all the hard work and suffer of all Jews who made the existance of that country possible. Most fascinating for me is the revival of the Hebrew language. This language was dead and nowadays there are several million native speakers. Wow! Although Israel has always been at war since its foundation it has a very well developed economy, democracy and as a result an interesting society. This year Israel will celebrate its 60th birthday. I will congratulate in May. :)
User avatar
By neurosport
#1445296
90% of people who support Israel are either jewish or brainwashed

90% is a number i made up because its less offensive than some other numbers ...
By Subliminal
#1445363
90% of people who support Israel are either jewish or brainwashed


It took me many years until I discovered my friendship to Israel deep in my heart. When I was a child I didn't know anything of Israel's existance. When German media started reporting about Intifada II most people were supporters of Arafat, PLO and Hamas. I began to ask myself: Why do so many people support these murderers? Why do so many people deprive Israel's right of defending itself? What did Mr. Sharon wrong when he visited a Jewish sanctuary in September 2000? Why is it politically correct to call oneself "anti-Zionist" although so called "anti-Zionism" is just a synonym for anti-Semitism? Why shouldn't the Jewish people have an own state in their native homeland? Later, in 2006, while Israel was defending itself against Hisbollah, many Westerners thought Israel had no right to fight for their soldiers (Ehud Goldwasser and Ehud Regev) althoug they've been kidnapped by Hisbollah in their own country. I think Israel did right all the time. There have never been any alternatives for Israel.
User avatar
By Annatar
#1445377
I'm pro Israel as I view it as a bastion of civilisation in a savage area of the world. I don't endorse everything Israel does nor do I think my government should support the state of Israel but I'm personally sympathetic to the Israeli people in their struggle for freedom.
User avatar
By War Angel
#1445409
Ehud Goldwasser and Ehud Regev

Eldad, Eldad Regev.

And thanks Subliminal, for your support. Are you Jewish? :lol:

Annatar - if you support Israel and sympathise, why do you think your country should not support it?
User avatar
By Annatar
#1445416
Annatar - if you support Israel and sympathise, why do you think your country should not support it?


I believe my country should only support other countries when it clearly serves its national interests/security. Israel is quite capable of defending itself and prosperous. Therefore there's no need for my country to support it. Germany should however have good diplomatic and economic relations with Israel and cooperate in military matters as I believe this would be in the two countries' mutual interests.
By Subliminal
#1445537
Eldad, Eldad Regev.


Ooooops, sorry. Eldad Regev. I hope he's still alive. I think it is Israel's duty to liberate Regev, Goldwasser and Schalit. They all have been kidnapped because they're soldiers of Zahal. They were forced to serve in the Zahal so Israel is forced to free them. Israel knows that and tries a lot to bring them home again.

And thanks Subliminal, for your support. Are you Jewish?


I'm afraid not. But I already visited a synagogue in Munich with a Jewish friend. (I know that doesn't make a Jew out of me.) ;) My grandma and my father also support Israel. Both of them have already been there twice. I'm looking forward to my first visit there. (But my Hebrew is not so good. Btw.: Is it true that every Israeli speaks at least two languages fluenty?) :)
User avatar
By War Angel
#1445631
I believe my country should only support other countries when it clearly serves its national interests/security. Israel is quite capable of defending itself and prosperous. Therefore there's no need for my country to support it. Germany should however have good diplomatic and economic relations with Israel and cooperate in military matters as I believe this would be in the two countries' mutual interests.


Oh, that's fine. I didn't mean support as literal support, but moral one. Still, given Germany's history, I do believe it has a certain commitment (even after more than six decades) towards Israel and the Jewish people.

They were forced to serve in the Zahal so Israel is forced to free them.

Nobody is forced. This is not a dictatorship. The law states one must serve, but there are plenty of ways to avoid that, and many do.

Israel knows that and tries a lot to bring them home again.

Sadly, we don't. We've broken a very important martial code by not doing jack shit to save these soldiers, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm afraid not.

Better that way, trust me. :D

Is it true that every Israeli speaks at least two languages fluenty?

You should be able to converse freely in English with all but the simplest of Israelis. Many have fierce accents, but being the talkative types, they don't let that get in the way, and chatter away. :lol:
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