Did The Jews Kill Christ? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By danholo
#1425294
But this is how it was supposed to happen. The Romans won and are doing so even until this day. Here's proof:

noelnada wrote:The persons involved are, the Roman, the Palestinians (Jews), the followers of Jesus, Jesus and also God.


It is quite funny to call these people Palestinian since the term didn't even exist in those times. From this, one can deduce that the Roman scheme to erase the Jewish connection to the land worked quite remarkably. For people to use that name so extensively even for people who do not identify themselves as such is amazing!

On a side note, "the cross" was a solely Roman execution method. Jews "only" resorted to stoning or strangulation if someone was sentenced to death. So the Jews didn't kill Jesus; no Jewish court was involved in his death.
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By Eauz
#1425297
No one killed Jesus. He committed suicide and the story of suicide isn't so great for Christans so they made up a story about how an other killed Christ.

It's too bad that Christ was a hippy with emo issues.
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By Noelnada
#1425320
It is quite funny to call these people Palestinian since the term didn't even exist in those times.


I'm glad you found the private joke. Hmm i don't remember well my catholic course about the subject anyway and the names of the different region of that time.

It's too bad that Christ was a hippy with emo issues.


Maybe but he greatly inspired great men with less emotive issues. Do you really think Constantine would have become a Roman Emperor without slaying everyone opposing his natural divine political leadership

There was a sign in the sky "above the sun" and with it the words "conquer by this". That night in a dream he said he saw Jesus telling him to use the chi-rho sign "as a safeguard in all battles". Constantine ordered it to be put on his soldier's shields - and won the battle. The symbol is made of the first two letters of 'Christ' in Greek - chi (X) and rho (P) .


Image

Yeah i know i repeat myself but i love the idea of Christian roman fanatics marching under the -Chi-Roh- banner and conquering the whole Empire.
By smashthestate
#1425762
It depends on whether you have faith in the New Testament or the Qur'an. One of the Gospels (I'm speaking strictly of the canonical ones, not all of them) positively blames the Jewish people as a whole (including all future generations) for Christ's death; though this is somewhat paradoxical, as this was a necessary action to simultaneously fulfill Old Testament prophecy and forgive Man's stain of original sin (another loving concept of Christianity). One might even find it conceivable to thank the Jewish people for their deicide. The other Gospels unfortunately leave this particular issue well enough alone.

The Qur'an, on the other hand, has an odd declaration that they didn't really even crucify Jesus, but someone in his place! Crazy Muslims. :lol:
By Red Flag
#1432233
Yes and no. The Jewish population in Jerusalem certainly was not sad when he died, and the Jewish leadership certianly played a key role. But present day jews can be no more responseble for that act then present day danes, and swedes can be responseble for the vikings.
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By Timmy Mac
#1436184
From the perspective of the Roman leadership at that time Christianity was a political threat that grew in underground networks, similarly to how terrorist ideology spreads today. Think of all the talk about a new "kingdom" with the "king of kings" arriving. You couldn't tell if a person was Christian by looking at them, and this perpetuated this fear.

As a result, Roman leaders used Christians as a scapegoat as early as 64 AD. for anything from a poor economy to fires in the city. Pliny the Younger wrote a letter to Emperor Trajan at this time to ask about how to deal with Christians. It reads like a scene from Office Space: "Hey, about these Christians... I'm supposed to just, go ahead and kill them off, right?" and Trajan replied "Uh, yeah, sounds good..Great, great." If you think in terms of politics, it makes much more sense. [/u]
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By Nets
#1436207
Red Flag wrote:Yes and no. The Jewish population in Jerusalem certainly was not sad when he died


And you base this on what? Anything other than the Gospels. There is no historical evidence Jesus (at the time) was any more significant than any of the other Prophets/Messiahs/Con Artists running around destitute, Roman-Occupied Judea at the time.

Keep in mind some of those Gospels, particularly John, were written decades after Jesus died, in the case of John about 80 yrs. later, probably in Greece not Judea. Christianity was competition for Judaism, of course they slandered us.

As a result, Roman leaders used Christians as a scapegoat as early as 64 AD. for anything from a poor economy to fires in the city. Pliny the Younger wrote a letter to Emperor Trajan at this time to ask about how to deal with Christians. It reads like a scene from Office Space: "Hey, about these Christians... I'm supposed to just, go ahead and kill them off, right?" and Trajan replied "Uh, yeah, sounds good..Great, great." If you think in terms of politics, it makes much more sense.


Roman Persecution of Christians was nothing compared to Christian persecution of Pagans when the circumstances changed. I actually took a really good history course on Christianity's first three hundred years. For he number of Christians martyred, estimates vary, though the consensus of the different historians seemed to be around 5,000.

Rome killed hundreds of thousands, if not over a million Jews, Jesus was one of them, his name just stuck.

I strongly recommend the following book to those interested in Christian history. It offers a good sociological view of Judea at the time and the different religious movements, prophets and such running around right before the Roman destruction of the Temple.

This book is also good, a scholarly criticism of the New Testament which is at times at times a little speculative but gets better as as it moves forward in time and the evidence is stronger.
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By Anothroskon
#1440021
Like I said one needs to distinguish when asking this question. There are two Christs.

1. Christ the son of God as per Christian doctrine
2. Christ the yet another Jewish prophet as per likely historical fact

For case no. 1 the answer is yes. This can be seen in Pilate’s judgement scene in Luke, John and Mark where the Jews are presented as crying “Crucify him” (Christ). The reason for Christians blaming Jews for their spiritual leader’s death is obvious. Until the second century Christianity was part of Judaism and all Christians were Jews, most in fact born so since Greek and other converts were few. By the fourth when the four Gospels were unofficially canonised they are a separate religion that no longer seeks to convert Jews but only Romans. It derives legitimacy by claiming to be the “true” inheritor of Jewish scriptural tradition and struggles to detach its followers from Judaism, both of which lead to its attempts at discrediting it (e.g. the Adversus Judaeus homilies by most Church fathers). This is also the cause of anti-Semitism as a special form of religious intolerance unique to Abrahamic religions. If the relationship between the two had turned out different (say Christianity dominated Judaism and stopped trying to convert Romans) then Christian doctrine would have blamed Jesus’ death on Romans.

Britannica > Origin of Christianity: the early Christians and the Jewish community
Largely owing to the discoveries at Qumran, many scholars now regard primitive Christianity, with its apocalyptic and eschatological interests, as part of a broad spectrum of attitudes within Judaism itself, rather than as peripheral to Jewish development or to the norm set by Pharisaic Judaism. Indeed, Jesus himself may now be classified as an apocalyptic prophet whose announced intentions were not to abrogate the Torah but to fulfil it.


For case no. 2 the answer is no. The Romans ruled Palestine at the time and had the historical Jesus executed. He was just another subversive and prophet claiming to be the Messiah, of the sort with which Palestine was rife at the time. The Jews had been conquered by the Romans and were expecting their Messiah to come soon, to set them free and restore their kingdom. Not surprisingly more than a few fanatics were willing to put themselves forward for the job. Today their equivalents are prophesying the End of Days in street corners, wearing cardboard signs or declaring Jihad in Iraq. The comparison is not entirely fair of course because at the time everyone believed the Messiah would come soon and indeed early Christians expected to see the Second Coming in their lifetimes for several centuries. The leaders of the Second and Third Jewish revolts were billed as the Messiahs and this is the main reason leading to schism between Christians and other Jews since the first already had their Messiah.

War Angel is right. Jesus was just one of the hundreds of thousands - 1 million Jews murdered by Rome during its occupation of Israel before the scattering.
Rome killed hundreds of thousands, if not over a million Jews, Jesus was one of them, his name just stuck.


The figure of 1.1 million, I am guessing you are citing in Josephus’ account, is absurd. The Empire’s population at the time was about 60 million and the World’s about 300. All historians of the times engaged in inflating numbers, for a variety of reasons and since many of them were Greek I hazard that boosting sales figures was one of them. Herodotus assigns 1.7 million men to Xerxes’ army and Thucydides similarly inflates the number of victims of the Peloponnesian War. Cassius Dio claims 240,000 Greek Romans massacred by Jews in Cyprus and another quarter of a million in Cyrene during the 115 CE Jewish revolts. He also cites half a million for Jewish dead during the Second Jewish revolt, while the Torah puts the number of dead to more than the number of the total inhabitants of the are at the time.

The accessibility of statistics, independent estimation, map information, calendar consistency and dispassionate objectivity we expect today were largely absent at the time and help explain these inflated numbers. This is not to invalidate their work but to see it in its proper context; they are still the best sources we have and neither is modern historiography free of such issues.

Before the 66 CE revolt, attributed to friction between the Jewish majority and the Greek communities, Roman rule in Palestine was benign by the standards of the time or indeed the Empire, for example Jews were exempt from military service and allowed to keep their customs.

Britannica > Roman occupation and Jewish revolts When the Romans had entered Palestine in 63 BC, they practiced a relatively humane occupation until c. AD 66–70. They did not interfere with religious practices unless they considered them a threat to Rome, and their rights of requisition were precise and limited.


Britannica > Relations between Jewish areas and nearby Gentile areas
In the 1st century, Rome showed no interest in making the Jews in Palestine and other parts of the empire conform to common Greco-Roman culture. A series of decrees by Julius Caesar, Augustus, the Roman Senate, and various city councils permitted Jews to keep their own customs, even when they were antithetical to Greco-Roman culture. For example, in respect for Jewish observance of the Sabbath, Rome exempted Jews from conscription in Rome's armies. Neither did Rome colonize Jewish Palestine. Augustus established colonies elsewhere (in southern France, Spain, North Africa, and Asia Minor), but prior to the First Jewish Revolt (AD 66–74) Rome established no colonies in Jewish Palestine.
#1440320
Even if he did exist, he would not be the son of an all-powerful deity. Chances are, his Mom cheated on his Dad but decided to call it a "miracle". Another thing, you cannot blame the death of one person on an entire people.
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By Anothroskon
#1440350
No Christ didn't exist.


The evidence for the existence of a real historical person as the foundation of the Christ myth is actually as good (or indeed bad) as the evidence we have for many other historical figures of antiquity. Don't forget that at the time of his death he was the leader of a minor Jewish sect of a few dozen people at best. To his contemporaries he would have been unremarkable and indeed it was Paul who did the most to create what we today call Christianity, although it is unlikely that even he would have seen himself as creating a different religion to Judaism.

What is certain is that the canonical Gospels do not constitute valid historical texts since they credulously report stories of paranormal events as reality, thus reducing their authors credibility.

That said this situation is not unique to the Christ myth. Abraham, Moses, Mohamad, Confusious, Socrate to name a few are also very thinly attested although in varying degrees. Don't forget we are talking about an era before photography, print, statistics, widespread birth and death certification (of which none has survived anyway) etc.
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By Zagadka
#1440539
Yes, they had a Jew meeting. Nicodemus put the motion to vote. Judas seconded the motion. With the Romans and Pharisees blocs joining together, they got 2/3rds of the vote, and Jesus was found guilty.
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By Donna
#1440548
Whoever killed Jesus, they were obviously doing the world a favor.
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By Zagadka
#1440559
Whoever killed Jesus, they were obviously doing the world a favor.

Jesus: You can’t win, Pilate. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine...

The stupid shit is that both Islam and Judaism have respects for Jesus as a prophet...
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By Donna
#1440589
He was supposed to die according to Christian belief in order to bear the sin of man. According to Muslim belief he wasn't actually killed, but replaced with a double and then magically ascended to paradise.

I don't see what the problem is here. We should celebrate this man's brutal death and congratulate whoever did it.
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