How many killed by capitalism - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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how many killed by capitalism

200 million+
31
43%
100 million+
5
7%
50 million+
1
1%
10 million+
1
1%
1 million+
1
1%
O
27
38%
Other
6
8%
By smashthestate
#1426326
Eauz wrote:[S]mashthestate, how many people were killed by smashing the state?

Only statesmen, and they don't count as people. So, 0.
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By Quercus Robur
#1426330
200 million pencils have given their little woden lives for the cause, but it's fairly apparent that people don't kill for ideals but to defend themselves and their family. Strictly then nobody has killed another person while advancing either ideology.
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By Kapanda
#1426539
Kapanda it is Marx - Surplus labour and surplus value -

Marx was proven wrong by reality. No one, and I'm including everyone in this statement, values production by the amount of labour input. Instead, largely supply and demand is what determines value.

And the story is fallacious, because it implies that the proportion of people unemployed by technological progress remain unemployed, which is not in the slightest true in reality. Through time, people adapt and become productive again by learning new skills. That is the truth. The US has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the world.
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By ingliz
#1426562
Kapanda - I am not dicussing the US which is NOT a laisse- faire capitalist state.I am dicusssing countries such as Uzbekistan [23% under and unemployment rate/33% under the poverty line] and Zambia [50% unemployment rate/86% under the poverty line].My statistics are taken from the latest CIA factbook.
Nowhere have I said the value of a product is determined by labour input.What I did say was the price it can be made can be; the difference being profit Nowhere have I said people don't adapt to technological change.What I did say was people die in the process
m4nu - Economics is a science,perhaps you think it is a pseudo-science, so lets give a nod to scientific rigour.
The theoretical basis supporting benign 'utopian' capitalism was comprehensibly refuted by Keynes in the 30's [his General Theory of Employment,Interest and Money].In science if a theory is discredited it is discarded.
Marx in his analysis of capital has given us the best macro-economic model of the effects of capitalism on the global economy. Marxist theory most closely approximates reality,not surprisingly, as his conclusions were derived from his own experience of the laissez-faire system.Unregulated capitalism, capitalism as practiced in third world countries, kills just as Marx predicted.My parable,though closely resembling reality, is solely predicated on Marx except for the rates of unemployment which are a based on similar CIA estimates.
By Manuel
#1426600
The problems in those nations is the corrupt regimes, the constant civil wars, the inadequate healthcare, and the lack of motivitation on the part of their leaders to change. Whether or not its capitalism or communism makes no difference.

Unless you plan to hold up Angola or Cambodia as shining examples of nations who did well without capitalism.
User avatar
By ingliz
#1426613
I don't have to hold up any country as shining examples of anything, or argue about the inevitability of progress ,or whether in future their lives will be better or worse,or if America is heaven on earth,or capitalism is better than communism.....All I am arguing is whether the circumstances brought on by the implementation of unregulated capitalism inevitably kills people.I believe they do.
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By Kapanda
#1426622
Well, then your argument stands no ground whatsoever. That people eventually die cannot be the consequence of any economic system.

By that same token, people that die of car crashes were killed by society due to lack of regulation on the roads that still allows people to have accidents.
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By ingliz
#1426659
The essence of all bourgeois thought what is happening out there in the real world isn't important, what's important is your belief system, if the real world somehow contradicts your beliefs then there is something wrong with reality because your beliefs are both the assumption and the conclusion.[almost a quote]
With thanks to Looter
On a closing note at least from me.I am glad that you believe communism and capitalism are morally equivalent.I am pleased that you concur that communists are no more cruel than capitalists; their respective governments included.It is a shame that their is no concensus on my last point,structural flaws in 'utopian' capitalist theory, but I can agree to differ.It was too much to hope that all my expectations would be met.Thankyou all.
Last edited by ingliz on 21 Jan 2008 12:48, edited 1 time in total.
By SaulOhio
#1458713
Falx wrote:The Irish potato famine killed people and its heart was a simple economical problem. Potatoes were more expensive in England than Ireland so it made sense to export and starve the population.

The Irish potato famine happened because of a LACK of capitalism. Catholic peasants were not allowed to own land as there was a requirement to convert to protestantism, so they were excluded from the capitalist system. Also, there were severe restrictions on free trade, including what were called the Corn Laws and the Navigation Laws.

Also, the Irish peasants who starved were growing the potatoes themselves, for their own use, so they would not have sold them in England, unless they could have gotten money for them to buy other food.

So far, the socialists and communists have claimed that capitalism has killed more people than communism, but they have not substantiated their claim, except for this mention of the Irish potato famine.

As far as Pinochet, only a couple thousand people died in Chile in the civil war that followed the coup against Allende. That is a pretty low number as civil wars go, and nothing compared even to the firing squads in Cuba under Ernesto "El Che" Guevara and Fidel Castro.

You might bring up the famines in India, but they didn't have free trade there. The British followed a policy of "divide and rule", giving local rajas a lot of power over small territories. They imposed a patchwork of different laws, making trade between these territories difficult. Some of them even imposed Sharia law in the more Moslem areas. Then there were very high taxes under Warren Hastings, confiscation of boats used in shipping for military purposes, an end to shipments from Japanese occupied Burma, and so forth. Hardly laissez-faire capitalism.
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By Rancid
#1458714
Capitalism doesn't kill people...


people kill people...

Communism doesn't kill people

people kill people...

;)
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By Anothroskon
#1458752
200.000.000+ more than likely 2.000.000.000+

To determine the number of deaths attributed to capitalism you would have to determine the number of deaths under normal circumstances in the period under consideration.

Assuming "normal circumstances" to mean the pre-capitalist feudal system and the time frame under consideration the period from the early 19th century to the present day we should first calculate the number of deaths under the "standard" feudalist regime. These would be the number of births minus the current population as it would be under a feudal system.

That would give a current Earht population of less than a billion, average lifespan of 35 etc. Assuming ...

Well you can see where this is going. Yes the capitalist system of production can be blamed for millions of deaths, as long as it is understood that in its abscense these people wouldn't be around to die in the first place, nor would we be having this conversation (no computers see) etc.
By AmericanPatriot
#1458927
Capitalism has killed a lot more people than communism.


Spoken by a true communist. Ever heard of Gulag? Forced labor? Mass deportation? Genocide?

Or better yet, have you ever heard of Stalin?
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By Athanas
#1459105
While I completely agree with you, leftists are notorious for attempting to (mis)place blame on anything and everything. Except themselves.

Evreything is someone else's fault. The mantra of the liberal.


Please spare me and everyone here the obvious partisan fanboy accusations.

You know all too well that all politicans including conservatives find it difficult to take responisbility.

Gonzales, Mark Foley, Ted Haggard, Larry Craig, John Ashcroft, George W Bush, I mean theres a long list of scandals and irresponsiblity.

Besides who is the party who fails time and time again to cooperate with investigation councils?
By SaulOhio
#1459168
Athanas wrote:Besides who is the party who fails time and time again to cooperate with investigation councils?

Every single one.

But I am guessing that you mean the Republican party. So what does that have to do with capitalism? The Republicans are hardly laissez-faire capitalists anymore, if they ever were. Under Bush, we got record government spending increases, steel tariffs, and prescription drug coverage for Medicare. Whats capitalist about those?
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By Beren
#1459541
If we compare ancient slave-holding, feudalism, capitalism and state-socialism, then capitalism killed the most people, no doubt. But capitalism feeds and fed the most people in human history, too. For the present it is the most capable social-economic system to creat general welfare. By the help of social democracy it can become something humane indeed.
By Jagannatha
#1459636
I really don't know, it depends how you define someone dying for capitalism really is. I don't think that it would be that many on the surface, as a main stated motive. I do think however, that there may be much more than we really know due to the actually thoughts, and hidden motives of these people. Therefor, it's sadly a subjective matter.
By AmericanPatriot
#1459703
I believe that one can compare the relationship of capitalism and progress as that of direct origins. Capitalism brings about progress. Early forms of capitalism evolved before any written records were created, but no one knew what to call it. Capitalism is an ingenious system that allows for nations to strive forward into the face of innovation and breakthrough. If you prefer to live in the Stone Age, then by all means, don't support capitalist theories.
By SaulOhio
#1459914
If you prefer to live in the Stone Age, then by all means, don't support capitalist theories.
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