[Maxim Litvinov]

And whose fault is that?

Well, it depends on your philosophy. But we can more easily answer 'who can change that?' - communities and governments can change it. With a better education system and a better social security network we can ensure that everyone has the opportunities to succeed vocationally. Without them and you're guaranteed that you'll be producing families with intergenerational unemployment issues.

[NYYS]

Who cares? I'm not willing to sacrifice the economic efficiency and growth of wealth of the rest of the nation just so that the 5% of people with no work ethic as a result of bad culture can sit on their asses and collect welfare.

We saw it in the US. The war on poverty was a failure. Rather than taking the money and using it to get their lives together, people sat around and got pregnant so the checks would be bigger. Some people just aren't going to try to improve themselves as a result of the culture they were brought up in, and to those people I say: tough luck.

[Maxim Litvinov]

You could rephrase that: "I'm not about creating a better society with higher mean living standards and better educated people if it's possible for people to take advantage of government intervention" :/

[Ideational Ontarian]

I think the discussion so far has ignored some of the biggest points in the article.

Four out of five of these homes have no one who is even looking for a job.

May I ask, WTF?

However evidence has been piling up that millions of Britons have been content to spend entire lives on benefits while four out of every five new jobs have been taken by immigrants.

Ok, so we have 6 million Britons on benefits yet 4/5 new jobs are taken by immigrants. Either there is too much immigration or the unemployed population is above doing the work that new immigrants do.

Last weekend a Government adviser said two out of three of the 2.64million claimants of incapacity benefit - the handout preferred by many because it pays more than regular unemployment benefits and there is no pressure to find a job - are shirking work.

Some 100,000 drug users and alcoholics are claiming state handouts on the grounds that their habit is a disability, it was revealed yesterday.

Clearly there are some large holes that people are getting free money through. How many of these alcoholics on benefits are in AA? How many of the crackheads are in rehab?

[Nets]

Why do they consistently find themselves among that 4-5%? Because they didn't work hard in school

Read the damn thread, Qatz. I didn't say that. Qatz, this is the second or third time you've skipped to the end of a thread and misquoted me. I said that nowhere, it was NYYS.

To Maxim and NYYS:

I think you both make good points. I happen to think the reality lies in between the two extremes you present. As for Maxim, I agree -- equality of opportunity (including primarily) education should be a pillar of any just society. As for NYYS, I think you are right, there are certainly lazy bums who take advantage of the system and should be rooted out. NYYS, you can't generalize that that 5% of unemployed folks are all lazy bums who deserve no help, but similarly Maxim can't reasonably state that all of them are deserving of help. The truth lies in the middle.

[Maxim Litvinov]

Either there is too much immigration or the unemployed population is above doing the work that new immigrants do.

First, the idea that adding to population doesn't add to job numbers is wrong. If you have 6 million unemployed, you won't suddenly get zero unemployed by deporting 6 million either.

Second, the idea of being 'above' work is to put it badly. It's not that the sort of work - e.g. cleaning - will not be performed by non-immigrants, so much as that immigrants will work for much lower pay than the society has come to expect. Unless and until this changes - ie. through solving issues of illegal immigration, for instance - this is just going to continue.

NYYS, you can't generalize that that 5% of unemployed folks are all lazy bums who deserve no help, but similarly Maxim can't reasonably state that all of them are deserving of help.

I am not against having measures to ensure that monies are spent correctly - that's a good move. I am against a culture of bashing the unemployed and failing to provide opportunities though - that's just counter-productive.

Something like paying for skilling for the long-term unemployed is hardly 'producing lazy bums', but actually producing quite the opposite. And it seems NYYS does not believe in such measures.

[Ideational Ontarian]

But are these stats talking about illegals? I assumed we are talking about people working at at least min wage?

[NYYS]

I am against a culture of bashing the unemployed and failing to provide opportunities though

Providing opportunities?! What the hell are public schools? Why can anyone in the US afford to go to college?

There is no lack of opportunity, there is a lack of culture that tells you to seize opportunity.

[QatzelOk]

Sorry, Nets, it was NYSux who wrote that.

That's the point of college, to increase your earning power.

Well, I guess I should have mentionned that I have three jobs currently, but they don't pay very well. I really believe in what I am doing, however. But my straight-As didn't get me any kind of monetary improvement so far.

Don't forget, NYS, that many teenagers drop out of school to increase their earning power. And they pay a big price for this "improvement" later on.

Likewise, a society that uses education primarily as a way to train workers for its factories might also have to pay some kind of price for this (mis)use of educational facilities at some point.

-----------------

Your way of seeing education as a money incubator, and your way of seeing the unemployed as pariahs makes me think you would be more supportive of a society that puts everyone through business school so they can all figure out ways to rip each other off instead of providing anything useful.

What have the world's billionaires ever provided to me or you? Nothing. They are the biggest welfare cases of all, in a way.

[NYYS]

Well, I guess I should have mentionned that I have three jobs currently, but they don't pay very well.

And why do they not pay very well? You're telling me a college grade with straight A's can't find good work? What are you majoring in? Music industry?

What have the world's billionaires ever provided to me or you? Nothing. They are the biggest welfare cases of all, in a way.

You're kidding?

Even if they didn't produce anything (which is amusingly naive) they certainly aren't dragging on society, since they're self-sufficient.

[Nets]

What have the world's billionaires ever provided to me or you? Nothing. They are the biggest welfare cases of all, in a way.

Not to be trivial, but Microsoft Office is a godsend and Bill Gates is worth every penny for it.

[Maxim Litvinov]

Providing opportunities?! What the hell are public schools? Why can anyone in the US afford to go to college?

[1] Providing basic schooling is not the be all and end all of opportunities.
[2] Providing reskilling and employment support is vital.
[3] Having schools does not mean having adequate education.
[4] College prices do stop 'everyone' having access to college - even if people could technically afford it, having to take out large loans actively dissuades the 'lower classes' from getting an education.
[5] Not only this, but the culture of public education in poorer areas is likely to fail to give poorer students the cultural advantage to make them likely to pursue a formal tertiary education. Since you seem to admit we need cultural changes, I'm unsure why you seem unwilling to fund them.

[QatzelOk]

You're telling me a college grade with straight A's can't find good work?

Oh, it's good work. I love all three of my jobs, that's why I work at them.

But I stopped judging my jobs by the monetary units they paid me back when I had my nervous breakdown a decade ago. I realized that my mind can't handle mundane work that I don't believe in no matter how much it pays.

College helped me to realize this more than ever. If you lose all of your sense of self-worth at work doing things you don't believe you should be doing, than no amount of money can buy that back.

The difference between a ghetto prostitute who hates his job, and a well-paid office drone who hates his job, are that one of them has to declare his income. The misery is the same for both.

What I was trying to say about college and money, is that there are many reasons why people don't finish (or even start) college, and laziness isn't the main one. Chasing money isn't the same thing as having ambition.

------

Likewise, what do you tell a single parent who doesn't want to work? Do you force him to leave his child and go work in an office watering plants three days a week? Is this really productive? Abandoning a child to water plants?

Isn't it alright to pay benefits to single parents who want to stay home and raise kids? Instead of forcing them into commerce in order to "restore their pride," wouldn't it be more effective to restore their pride by making a stay-at-home parent a respectable role in your society?

[NYYS]

Providing basic schooling is not the be all and end all of opportunities.

It pretty much is, actually. It's the best way to increase your income.

Providing reskilling and employment support is vital.

No, because if everyone tries hard in school they don't need those things.

Having schools does not mean having adequate education.

That's true, no argument here. Public schools is one of the few places I support higher government spending.

even if people could technically afford it, having to take out large loans actively dissuades the 'lower classes' from getting an education.

You don't need massive loans to go to your local state school. If you're poor and did moderately well in high school between government aid and need-based scholarships you're going to go for next to nothing.

Since you seem to admit we need cultural changes, I'm unsure why you seem unwilling to fund them.

We tried it. We gave them money. We pumped more and more of it to try to get them to make something of themselves. They took it and asked for more. Culture doesn't change.

But I stopped judging my jobs by the monetary units they paid me back when I had my nervous breakdown a decade ago. I realized that my mind can't handle mundane work that I don't believe in no matter how much it pays.

Unfortunately we all have to do things we don't like in order to support ourselves or have the time and money for things we do like. You clearly enjoy college, so you should make real money (even if it's against what sounds fun right this second) so that you can afford to do what you like.

[QatzelOk]

We tried it. We gave them money. We pumped more and more of it to try to get them to make something of themselves. They took it and asked for more. Culture doesn't change overnight.

This is racial discourse, isn't it.

[Eauz]

That's the point of college, to increase your earning power.

The purpose of university/college/etc., is to increase the discipline of its citizens. This is why they call majors, disciplines. Outside of this, there really is no purpose for university.

The difference of natural talents in different men is, in reality, much less than we are aware of; and the very different genius which appears to distinguish men of different professions, when grown up to maturity, is not upon many occasions so much the cause as the effect of the division of labour.

[NYYS]

This is racial discourse, isn't it.

It's not intended to be, but as I was writing it I did notice I was using "them" and "they" a lot and thought someone might see racial undertones. To clarify, I meant the poor.

The purpose of university/college/etc., is to increase the discipline of its citizens. This is why they call majors, disciplines. Outside of this, there really is no purpose for university.

You say tomato...

In our society it makes people better at what they do, and therefore command more money in the labor market.

[unbalanced zealot]

John Howard in Australia came up with the idea of privatising
as many elements of welfare as possible so a to turn it into
an industry for the private sector. All kinds of new companies sprung
up to assist the underclass and make a profit at the tax payers
expense.

The wife of our current PM made millions from it (literally).

IMO this path is almost as problematic as the 'let them eat cake' outlook.
I'd actually like to see policies formulated on welfare which are free of ideology.
I think ideolocial distortions on both sides are the cause of bad welfare policies
and legislation.

[PredatorOC]

We just have to accept that there will be some people out there who will always struggle to find work, for whom the natural state will be unemployment and there will always be (officially) 4% to (unofficially) 10% of people for whom there simply is no work.

And strict employment laws and heavy taxation play no part in this? Beyond those who can't actually work, very few would have trouble finding jobs. But all the problems of seeking work are compounded with unemployment benefits, since there is no urgency and eventually many get used to living on benefits. I have seen this happen with too many people. And no amount of re-education programs is going to change the basic problem that messing with people's incentives creates.

[Maxim Litvinov]

But all the problems of seeking work are compounded with unemployment benefits, since there is no urgency and eventually many get used to living on benefits.

[1] Having people in work where that work is unsafe and liable to injure them, or where they are not being paid enough to survive adequately is useless and a problem in itself.
[2] There is always an incentive to work where you get paid more by working than by not working. Which is the case already.