Palestinians want to follow Kosovo's example. - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#1457889
RAMALLAH, West Bank - The Palestinians should follow Kosovo's example and unilaterally declare independence if peace talks with Israel fail, a senior Palestinian official said Wednesday, but the Palestinian president said the proposal was premature.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080220/ap_ ... lestinians

The mixed Palestinian messages came a day after the latest meeting between Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.

The two men formally relaunched peace talks at a U.S.-hosted summit in Annapolis, Md., last November. While the sides meet regularly, Palestinian officials have complained the talks are proceeding slowly and that President Bush's goal of brokering a peace treaty in 2008 is not realistic.

Yasser Abed Rabbo, a Palestinian negotiator and top aide to Abbas, said in an interview Wednesday that the peace efforts "are going nowhere."

He said the Palestinians' "first option" is success in the negotiations. "If this doesn't happen, we have another option," he said, noting Kosovo's declaration of independence from Serbia earlier this week.

"Kosovo is not better than Palestine," he added. "If the whole world, the United States, the European Union, the majority of its states, have embraced the independence of Kosovo, why shouldn't this happen with Palestine as well?"

Abed Rabbo said the Palestinian leadership is discussing the proposal. However, Abbas reacted coolly to the idea, saying in a statement that he remained committed to reaching a negotiated peace agreement this year.

"If we are unable to do that ... we will return to our Arab (brothers) to take the appropriate decision," he said.

The chief Palestinian negotiator, Ahmed Qureia, quickly quashed the idea of a unilateral decision and said such a proposal was never discussed by the Palestinian leadership.

"Decisions should be taken and then declared, and not be declared and then be taken," Qureia told The Associated Press, in apparent criticism of Abed Rabbo.

Qureia said the negotiations with Israel are serious and are touching on all major issues, but concurred with Abed Rabbo that no progress has been made so far.

State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said Wednesday that Kosovo's situation was unique.

"The Israelis and the Palestinians have been trying for some time in the confines of the political process to try to work something out and come to an accommodation, a solution," he said. "The international community has spoken to that, as well. We believe that there is hope in that process. It has not run its course."

Normally talkative Israeli and Palestinian officials have released few details on the status of their talks. Palestinian officials say the White House has urged the sides to maintain secrecy, fearing leaks could hurt progress.

Olmert also is wary of publicizing progress because a key coalition partner has threatened to pull out of the government if he makes any concessions on the issue of Jerusalem. If the ultra-Orthodox Shas party follows through on its threat, Olmert would lose his parliamentary majority.

"We want these negotiations to succeed, and it is clear that if every detail of the discussions is in the public spotlight that will not be conducive to a successful negotiating process," Olmert spokesman Mark Regev said.

The Palestinians already have declared independence before, in 1988, but the international community did not recognize the declaration. At that time, there was no territory under Palestinian control.

The Palestinians hope to establish an independent state in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem — areas captured by Israel in the 1967 Mideast war.

Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005, but maintains a large military presence and more than 100 Jewish settlements in the West Bank. Israel annexed east Jerusalem after the 1967 war and considers the entire city its undivided capital. Olmert has signaled a readiness for a large withdrawal from the West Bank and a pullback from parts of east Jerusalem under a final peace deal.

Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Arye Mekel rejected the notion of a unilateral declaration of independence.

"Our policy is that we believe that such matters should be resolved in agreement and not by unilateral steps," he said. "That's why we are negotiating now and trying to reach an agreement."

Abbas and Olmert met for two hours Tuesday, including for one hour without aides, said Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev. Israeli officials said the two sides agreed to set up professional teams on some of the technical issues, such as water, the environment and the economy.

Talks have been troubled by continued Israeli construction in areas the Palestinians have claimed for a future state. Under the internationally endorsed "road map" peace plan, which is the basis of the renewed negotiations with the Palestinians, Israel is to cease all settlement activity.

Regev said the Israeli government is committed to its road map obligations. "There will be no new settlement construction and there will be no outward expansion of existing settlements," he said.

The first phase of the road map also requires the Palestinians to dismantle militant groups. The Palestinians say they have made progress in this area, but Israel says they still have a long way to go.



Interesting what would happen if Palestine declared independence? What about Jerusalem? Would this act lead to an all out war with Israel?
By Maas
#1458065
Interesting what would happen if Palestine declared independence? What about Jerusalem? Would this act lead to an all out war with Israel?

What about it? It's partially theirs.
The whole world sees it like that.
User avatar
By Nets
#1458086
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinia ... dependence

Remember, de-facto and de-jure is what matters here. Kosovo, despite declaring independence only this week, has de-facto been independent for several years already. Meanwhile Palestine can declare all it wants (as it did in 1988), but de-facto it is in no position to declare anything...except for Gaza which is de-facto independent by de-jure occupied.
By steven_schanker
#1458112
This article explains it quite nicely:

Palestinians and a Kosovo Pipe Dream

DEBKAfile Special Report

February 20, 2008, 1:59 PM (GMT+02:00)


Yasser Abd Rabbo makes wave with his Kosovo headline
The proposal by senior Palestinian negotiator Yasser Abed Rabbo put forward Wed Feb. 20 to copy the Kosovo example if Israel continued to mark time in talks for a Palestinian state was quickly knocked down by his colleagues, but eyed with interest by Israel.
Tuesday, prime minister Ehud Olmert and foreign minister Tzipi Livni held another round of negotiations with Palestinian leaders Mahmoud Abbas and Ahmed Qureia.
DEBKAfile’s Middle East sources commented: Nothing has stopped the Palestinians from going ahead and declaring the West Bank independent, any more than Hamas was prevented from seizing control of and governing the Gaza Strip. But Abbas and his Ramallah-based Palestinian Authority circle know that the moment unilateral independence is declared, the violent Al Aqsa Brigades faction of Fatah, Hamas, Jihad Islami and the rest of the Palestinian terrorist groups will move in and sweep them out.
In fact, if the Kosovo model were seriously applicable to the Palestinians, Israel might profit in three ways.
1. It would put a stop to the tedious biweekly charade of “peace negotiations” between and Israeli and Palestinian leaders and the meaningless statements issuing from both sides to cover their lack of content.
Livni assured the Knesset Monday, Feb. 18, that whenever she sits down to talk with Palestinian leaders, “the tears of Israeli paratroops at the Western Wall are before her eyes.” Nonetheless, she went on to say, the talks must go on to save Israel from being caught up in a religious war.
She used the future tense when, on that very day, the Iranian Revolutionary Guards publication Sobh-e Sadeqh (Dawn of Truth), discussing the death of Imad Mughniyeh editorially, called on believers “to kill the infidels everywhere, trap them and hold them to torture and ambush.”
The founder of Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Republic Ruhollah Khomeini left his successors in Tehran a clear definition of the term infidels: “Contemporary Jews and Christians are unbelievers because they falsified the Torah and the New Testament and do not live according to the precepts of Moses or Jesus.”
Holy jihad was the theme of many of the Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat’s speeches for eight years when he tried to justify the long Palestinian war against Israel.
2. Abd Rabbo explained that the independent Palestinian state he proposes would treat Israel’s military counter-terror operations in the West Bank as an attack on the Palestinian state. It would be up to the Palestinian military to fight the terrorists. That would take the burden off Israel’s back – except that DEBKAfile’s military sources report that Abd Rabbo was talking through his hat. The Palestinian Authority can barely deploy 400 trained military men for the daunting mission of bringing thousands of terrorists under control, despite the many years and vast efforts invested by the US to bring an effective Palestinian force up to scratch.
3. Israel would gain substantially if the Palestinian government would finally stand on its own feet and start looking after its citizens, using the billions of dollars donated by the international community to start creating jobs, build roads and infrastructure, provide proper education and medical services, construct industries and regulate commerce.
The Palestinian rulers of the West Bank and Gaza Strip have never been prevented from behaving like proper governments. But while taking receipt of huge donations from all over the world, including Israel, the Palestinian Authority has not put the money into projects for the good of the people – any more than Hamas invested the suitcases of smuggled cash to provide clean streets free of sewage.
So where does the money go? It is diverted to two destinations.

One - into the pockets of Palestinian Authority and Fatah leaders, whose fabled corrupt practices did much to boost Hamas’ credibility with the Palestinian voter.

Two - into the war chests of Palestinian terrorist organizations to fund their arsenals and anti-Israel operations.


Therefore, Palestinian leaders may talk big about creating an independent state but when it comes to the point, their willingness to come out from under the American and Israeli umbrella, leave the gravy train and walk without external crutches is questionable.

Abd Rabbo’s colleagues therefore lost no time in disowning his Kosovo vision in case it was accepted. They picked up the comment from some Israeli circles: Let them create another Kosovo; let’s see how long they manage to survive on their own.
User avatar
By Cid
#1458139
Rather odd news considering that Palestine is already recognized by many countries as a sovereign state:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... on-map.png

except for Gaza which is de-facto independent by de-jure occupied.
I think you mean it vice versa, de-jure independant and de-facto occupied.
By Tonic
#1458141
Cid, (or other member) can you watch this YouTube vids? Or is it just my computer or browser problem? In my computer the vids paused and discontinued each second.

1920 - The year the Arabs discovered Palestine

(part 1)



(part 2)

User avatar
By Cid
#1458150
can you watch this YouTube vids? Or is it just my computer or browser problem? In my computer the vids stopped and discontinued each second.
There is nothing wrong with the vids, must be your pc or more likely that your connection is slow.
By Tonic
#1458158
Thanks Cid, what should I do? Is it the computer memory problem?
User avatar
By MB.
#1458235
Tonic could you continue this conversation by PM? It has no place in the ME Forum.
User avatar
By Nets
#1458440
I think you mean it vice versa, de-jure independant and de-facto occupied


Not at all. Gaza has an independent government that runs its affairs -- it is still "occupied" under Int'l law though.
User avatar
By Cid
#1459363
Not at all. Gaza has an independent government that runs its affairs -- it is still "occupied" under Int'l law though.


In the legal sense (which was implicated by the use of the word de-jure) to claim Gaza as de-jure occupied or occupied under Int. law is contradictionary. The recognition of Israeli occupation on Gaza by International law does not mean that there is de-jure occupation.
De-jure means 'by law'(legal) and not 'of law'(material) as you interpret it. De-jure occupation would mean that the law would provide legal foundation for occupation or in any other way exercise of force in a structured and uninterrupted manner over Gaza, such foundation in law is absent.

Perhaps your claim relates to the political matter, that you meant to say that in principle Gaza is considered occupied and in effect it is independent. But to claim Gaza as de-jure occupied is a contradictio in terminis.
By Maas
#1459955
Gaza has an independent government that runs its affairs

they are not free to run their airport which has been closed down for I dunno how long, and the seaport is closed too. Because Israel wants it like that, for reasons we all know. On the other hand, that has destroyed their economy completely. You might as well be angry when nothing to do.
By steven_schanker
#1459977
they are not free to run their airport which has been closed down for I dunno how long, and the seaport is closed too. Because Israel wants it like that, for reasons we all know. On the other hand, that has destroyed their economy completely. You might as well be angry when nothing to do.


Wait a moment here. The GOVERNMENT ITSELF of this entity is firing rockets into Israeli territory - a War Crime of the worst case possible - and you are actually suggesting that they be allowed unfettered access to large jumbo jets? Are you out of your mind?

There is actually a part of me that says, you know what, call ther bluff, and let them have an airport, etc. But what I would do is keep track of all of those apologists like you demanding that they be given those rights - so that when the first plane is loaded with 200,000 kgs of explosives and flown into Tel Aviv, I would make sure the terrorists are dealt with, but not first.
By Maas
#1460088
a War Crime of the worst case possible

the worst? :roll:
Locking millions up and starving them to death is way worse.
That's what Israel came up with as a solution. Somthing the Nazi's did to the Jews in Warshaw. :hmm:
Are you out of your mind?

some people here think they got selfcontrole. They absolutely do not. And as far as being out of my mind: not letting them have selfcontrole and able to have some economic succes is a big part why the general population in gaza fires rockets at Israel in the first place.
By steven_schanker
#1460451
the worst? Locking millions up and starving them to death is way worse. That's what Israel came up with as a solution. Somthing the Nazi's did to the Jews in Warshaw.


You are an adult right? Meaning you are over 12 years old and I am not totally wasting my time, here, yes?

The Gaza arab duly elected GOVERNMENT if firing those rockets into Israel.

Israel is under no responsiblity whatsoever to support, protect, feed or otherwise enable the arabs living there. She has washed her hands of them, and that is that.

Its so humorous to see the same anti-semites complain today about how Israel won't come back into Gaza and aid the arabs, when for 40 years they complained Israel won't get out of the occupied areas. It's perfect proof that it makes no difference whatsoever what Israel does that her detractors will blame her for everything that happens to the arabs.

Well, friend, its is long past due for the gazan arabs to step up, remove this cancerous Hamas gov't they elected, and put in one that is willing to negotiate with Egypt and Israel, and not issue threats.

If the gazan arabs have it so bad, then they need to take the necessary steps like decent humans and remove Hamas from power and cease the rocket attacks. They want it both ways, to threaten and attack israel, but want israel to continue to feed them, but those days are over.
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