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#1464828
I need some reading lists

In the next few months I'll have time to read again, and I'd like to read intensively on the following subjects

The nature of the Jewish exodus from the Arab countries


I found these in the Bibliography of Ilan Pappe's* A History of Modern Palestine
J Beinin: The Dispersion of Egyptian Jewry. (1998)
M Gat: The Jewish Exodus from Iraq 1948-1951 (1987)
Thoughts?

A grand history of Zionism

I have Hannagh Arendt's The Jewish Writings coming to me in the post but I'd like something else to read alongside it. I'm especially interested in anything that deals with cross national socialist strands in Zionism.

Anything dealing with the impact of the post 60s left in Israel would be nice too
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By Nets
#1464880
I found these in the Bibliography of Ilan Pappe's* A History of Modern Palestine


I'd stay away from Pappe, he's more ideologue than historian. If you want more balanced but still left-leaning analysis with more credibility I'd read Benny Morris or Avi Shlaim, both excellent.

The nature of the Jewish exodus from the Arab countries


The history of this isn't incredibly well documented in English unfortunately. I'd recommends "1949: The First Israelis" by Tom Segev which deals extensively with the integration of the millions of Arab Jews into what was then a European Israel. Of course take his writings with appropriate weight, but this isn't as much of a problem in his earlier books such as this one.
By Tonic
#1465214
Jewish exodus from the Arab countries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exo ... Arab_lands

Bibliography
Avneri, Arieh (1984). Claim of Dispossession: Jewish Land-Settlement and the Arabs, 1878-1948. Transaction Publishers. ISBN 0-87855-964-7
Cohen, Hayyim J. (1973). The Jews of the Middle East, 1860-1972 Jerusalem, Israel Universities Press. ISBN 0-470-16424-7
Cohen, Mark (1995) Under Crescent and Cross, Princeton, Princeton University Press.
De Felice, Renzo (1985). Jews in an Arab Land: Libya, 1835-1970. Austin, University of Texas Press. ISBN 0-292-74016-6
Gat, Moshe (1997), The Jewish Exodus from Iraq, 1948-1951 Frank Cass.
Gilbert, Sir Martin (1976). The Jews of Arab lands: Their history in maps. London. World Organisation of Jews from Arab Countries : Board of Deputies of British Jews. ISBN 0-9501329-5-0
Gruen, George E. (1983) Tunisia's Troubled Jewish Community (New York: American Jewish Committee, 1983). (ASIN B0006YCZQM)
Harris, David A. (2001). In the Trenches: Selected Speeches and Writings of an American Jewish Activist, 1979-1999. KTAV Publishing House, Inc. ISBN 0-88125-693-5
Levin, Itamar (2001). Locked Doors: The Seizure of Jewish Property in Arab Countries. Praeger/Greenwood. ISBN 0-275-97134-1
Lewis, Bernard (1984). The Jews of Islam. Princeton. Princeton University Press. ISBN 0-691-00807-8
Lewis, Bernard (1986). Semites and Anti-Semites: An Inquiry into Conflict and Prejudice, W. W. Norton & Co. ISBN 0-393-02314-1
Nini, Yehuda (1992), The Jews of the Yemen 1800-1914. Harwood Academic Publishers. ISBN 3-7186-5041-X
Pappe, Ilan (2004), A History of Modern Palestine One Land Two Peoples, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0 521 55632 5
Rejwan, Nissim (1985) The Jews of Iraq: 3000 Years of History and Culture London. Weidenfeld and Nicolson. ISBN 0-297-78713-6
Roumani, Maurice (1977). The Case of the Jews from Arab Countries: A Neglected Issue, Tel Aviv, World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries, 1977 and 1983 (ASIN B0006EGL5I)
Schulewitz, Malka Hillel. (2001). The Forgotten Millions: The Modern Jewish Exodus from Arab Lands. London. ISBN 0-8264-4764-3
Schulze, Kristen (2001) The Jews of Lebanon: Between Coexistence and Conflict. Sussex. ISBN 1-902210-64-6
Simon, Rachel (1992). Change Within Tradition Among Jewish Women in Libya, University of Washington Press. ISBN 0295971673
Stearns, Peter N. Citation from The Encyclopedia of World History Sixth Edition, Peter N. Stearns (general editor), © 2001 The Houghton Mifflin Company, at Bartleby.com.
Stillman, Norman (1975). Jews of Arab Lands a History and Source Book. Jewish Publication Society
Stillman, Norman (2003). Jews of Arab Lands in Modern Times. Jewish Publication Society, Philadelphia. ISBN 0-8276-0370-3
Zargari, Joseph (2005). The Forgotten Story of the Mizrachi Jews. Buffalo Public Interest Law Journal (Volume 23, 2004-2005).
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By Pleb
#1465535
That asterix was meant to be a footnote letting everybody know that Ilan Pappe is Michael Moore for Palestine. I picked up the book on impulse in a bookshop. I thought something with a Cambridge University Press imprint would be a little bit more respectable, lesson learned. I was really annoyed when I got home, it was only when I looked him up on wikipedia that I remembered reading an article he wrote for Counterpunch. What a prick. It's not even that it's all lies - I'm sure plenty of it is fact, it's just so hard to tell. He takes the side of the underdog in every situation and ignores anything but where to put some blame. He jumps from one event to another in craziest order and invents cause and effect to suit himself. I only finished it so I could write a review. Moral of the story: stop buying books on the high street.

I was expecting more of the same from Benny Morris to be honest but I think I'll read him anyway. I want to get through all these 'new historians.'
By Tonic
#1465544
Pleb

That asterix was meant to be a footnote letting everybody know that Ilan Pappe is Michael Moore for Palestine. I picked up the book on impulse in a bookshop. I thought something with a Cambridge University Press imprint would be a little bit more respectable, lesson learned. I was really annoyed when I got home, it was only when I looked him up on wikipedia that I remembered reading an article he wrote for Counterpunch. What a prick. It's not even that it's all lies - I'm sure plenty of it is fact, it's just so hard to tell. He takes the side of the underdog in every situation and ignores anything but where to put some blame. He jumps from one event to another in craziest order and invents cause and effect to suit himself. I only finished it so I could write a review. Moral of the story: stop buying books on the high street.


Image

Ilan Pappe. Whould you trust an "historian" wearing this T Shirt and an conceited smile? Of course he just play to the gallery. But it works for him. He's famous. He just got a job at the University of Exeter in Britain, isn't it better than Haifa university?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilan_Pappe
Criticism
Critiquing Pappé's 2004 book, A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples, historian Benny Morris wrote in the New Republic:

'Unfortunately much of what Pappe tries to sell his readers is complete fabrication. [...] This book is awash with errors of a quantity and a quality that are not found in serious historiography. [...] The multiplicity of mistakes on each page is a product of both Pappe's historical methodology and his political proclivities[.] [...] For those enamored with subjectivity and in thrall to historical relativism, a fact is not a fact and accuracy is unattainable'. [13]

Pappé replied, on the website The Electronic Intifada:

'My books has[sic] in it mistakes of the dates, names and numbers as does his books. We should all try and minimize them to note, I agree. Very few of us succeed and one can only hope to become perfect in the next work — which has not as yet been written[.] [...] They should not however be pointed out as part of an ideology or a basis for ad hominem attack. Worse, a reviewer is not allowed to lie openly about them as Morris does.[14][15]

Efraim Karsh also says there are factual misrepresentations in Pappé book:

'Readers are told of events that never happened, such as the nonexistent May 1948 Tantura "massacre" or the expulsion of Arabs within twelve days of the partition resolution. They learn of political decisions that were never made, such as the Anglo-French 1912 plan for the occupation of Palestine or the contriving of 'a master plan to rid the future Jewish state of as many Palestinians as possible.' And they are misinformed about military and political developments, such as the rationale for the Balfour declaration . . .'[16]

Pappé says Karsh 'has taken upon himself the mantle of spokesperson for the Zionist narrative, and anyone thus committed to a national narrative cannot begin to accept the claims made by the counter-narrative, in this case, the Palestinian one.'[17]

In a review essay of "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine," Seth J. Frantzman calls Pappe's work "a cynicalexercise in manipulating evidence to fit an implausible thesis." [18] Frantzman summarizes, "Pappe's book falls short, and it does so in a particularly damning way. He ignores context and draws far broader conclusions than evicence allows by cherry-picking some reports and ignoring other sources entirely."[19]



Pleb

What is your subject in the university? Did you read about pre-state history? Do you have opinion about Jewish terrorists groups?
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By Nets
#1465746
Pleb wrote:I was expecting more of the same from Benny Morris to be honest but I think I'll read him anyway. I want to get through all these 'new historians.'


Pleb I think you'll find Benny Morris to be a strange beast altogether. Perhaps more than any other Israeli historian he mainstreamed the Palestinian narrative, he more than anyone exposed Israel to its previous crimes.

What is interesting though is his views on this. While a hero of the left, he has swung rightward in recent years. After the intifada rolled around he became very bitter, arguing that the expulsion of the Arab was completely justified, and that Israel should have finished the job and taken then West Bank in '48 and been done with it.

His clear documentation of Palestinian suffering mixed with his recent right-wing views are an interesting combinations.

A great historian nonetheless.

You should check out this interview with him....and odd fellow.

He mixes history such as this:

According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?

Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field - they are shot. A woman is found in an abandoned village - she is shot. There are cases such as the village of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a column entered the village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.

The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod (250), Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70). There is no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated there. At Jaffa there was a massacre about which nothing had been known until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the north. About half of the acts of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in October 1948]: at Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum, Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion.


With politics such as this:

That was the situation. That is what Zionism faced. A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. It was necessary to cleanse the hinterland and cleanse the border areas and cleanse the main roads. It was necessary to cleanse the villages from which our convoys and our settlements were fired on........Remember another thing: the Arab people gained a large slice of the planet. Not thanks to its skills or its great virtues, but because it conquered and murdered and forced those it conquered to convert during many generations. But in the end the Arabs have 22 states. The Jewish people did not have even one state. There was no reason in the world why it should not have one state. Therefore, from my point of view, the need to establish this state in this place overcame the injustice that was done to the Palestinians by uprooting them.
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By Pleb
#1465751
I studied History at University but we didn't cover anything to do with Israel. I'm just doing some reading before I move there for a few months in April.

The only book I've read on pre state Israeli history is Pappe. I have The Jewish Writings by Hannagh Arendt coming in the post.

As far as the Zionist terrorist groups go, I dunno, violent people with violent plans. A very organised bunch I suppose.

How about you?

That Benny Morris guy sounds like quite a character, I'll make sure to read him.
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By Tailz
#1466409
Benny Morrie is a good author to read, but he does have his faults as well. He is a good historian, just a pitty about his political views which kinda blow.
User avatar
By Nets
#1466539
Tailz wrote:Benny Morrie is a good author to read, but he does have his faults as well. He is a good historian, just a pitty about his political views which kinda blow.


Yea I know what you mean. I tend to agree with him on some things politically, and not others. The same goes for the leftist historians like Tom Segev, and to a lesser extent Avi Shlaim. Great, great historians who can get pretty tiresome when they invoke their own political views.

Pleb you may also be interested in Gershom Gorenberg's excellent book, "Accidental Empire: Israel and the Birth of the Settlements 1967-1977". It may not be what you are looking for but an excellent book nonetheless.
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By Tailz
#1466839
NetsNJFan87 wrote:
Yea I know what you mean. I tend to agree with him on some things politically, and not others. The same goes for the leftist historians like Tom Segev, and to a lesser extent Avi Shlaim. Great, great historians who can get pretty tiresome when they invoke their own political views.

Pleb you may also be interested in Gershom Gorenberg's excellent book, "Accidental Empire: Israel and the Birth of the Settlements 1967-1977". It may not be what you are looking for but an excellent book nonetheless.

There are a lot of good authors who do some very good research and documentation of the research data, but its when they start to apply their own political views they their work turns to pure shite.

Benny Morris is a good example, he can document the Israeli wars pretty well, but just ignore his political opinions as he appears to think the whole place should have been pursed of Arabs for there to be peace today, and that doing so would have been the just thing to do.

What are you searching for Pleb? Are you searching for books that will just reinforce your own views of the situation - or are you trying to be open minded and question everything?
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By Tailz
#1466885
Tonic wrote:
tailz

What are you reading?

Currently? The Atheists Manifesto, and another book titled: Military Errors of World War II. Next I think I'll have to read a book about ActionScript 3.0 and maybe if I get my hands on some good Ian V. Hogg books, a few titles about Artillery of the Second World War.

So am I reading anything from an author with a conceited smile that you frown upon? :lol:
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By danholo
#1467034
Why fascination with the left? Everything should be studied from left to right. They're all whackos in their own right. As always, with reading books like this, you should always use an information filter. All of them deserve a read though. To tell you the truth, I haven't read any of em', only browsed through a little, but I'll get to it some day.

As for my two cents, if you are interested in warfare, Michael B. Oren's book "Six Days of War" which, obviously, covers the Six-Day War is a very concise and highly recommended book. Not only did he use any and all sources possible, from Israel to Egypt to the US and all the way to Russia, he also did interviews with individuals from all nationalities, who participated in the war on an operational or political level. A history book at its finest!

Another book that was recommended by a friend is titled "The Seventh Million: The Israelis and the Holocaust" by Tom Segev.

This is probably a book Nets and tailz would probably enjoy as well!

(thanks for ONE thread that is not a flame war.)
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By Pleb
#1467070
What are you searching for Pleb? Are you searching for books that will just reinforce your own views of the situation - or are you trying to be open minded and question everything?


I have a few opinions and I want to justify them with cherrypicked facts. That's the way PoFo taught me to argue.


I'm not so interested in Warfare. What interests me is Nationbuilding within Israel, how did all of these groups integrate into one country? The example of the Arab Jews is interesting because it shows that even within Judaism, there's a hierarchy of race. I'm interested to see how a group of European Zionists convinced a group of Arab Jews to share the same indentity and intertwine their fates. I'm suspicious of the simplistic antisemitism narrative. I find it hard to believe that the antisemitism faced by the European Jews in the late ninteenth and early twentieth centuries was the same as the antisemitism in the Arab world. The forces that put the European Jews in a position of power and alienation probably weren't present in the pre-capitalist Arab world. So I'd love to know the processes through which the Arab Jews came to identify with the Zionists. In fact while were here I'd need a history of Jews in the Muslim worlds

I'm interested to see how they fared within Israel adjusting to the strange new sociopolitical rules. I'm interested to see how they adapted to the new politics of language. Arab was a dirty word for a while, what happened to their native tongues?

The other thing that interests me is efforts made (pre Israeli in particular) by Zionists and Muslims to work together. Transcending nationalism is usually a Socialist endavour, hence my lean to the left
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By Nets
#1467086
DanHolo wrote:As for my two cents, if you are interested in warfare, Michael B. Oren's book "Six Days of War" which, obviously, covers the Six-Day War is a very concise and highly recommended book. Not only did he use any and all sources possible, from Israel to Egypt to the US and all the way to Russia, he also did interviews with individuals from all nationalities, who participated in the war on an operational or political level. A history book at its finest!


Excellent,excellent book. I think Rabinowitz's "Yom Kippur War" is even better though.

DanHolo wrote:Another book that was recommended by a friend is titled "The Seventh Million: The Israelis and the Holocaust" by Tom Segev.


I haven't gotten around to this one yet, it looks too upsetting.

Pleb wrote:What interests me is Nationbuilding within Israel, how did all of these groups integrate into one country? The example of the Arab Jews is interesting because it shows that even within Judaism, there's a hierarchy of race. I'm interested to see how a group of European Zionists convinced a group of Arab Jews to share the same indentity and intertwine their fates. I'm suspicious of the simplistic antisemitism narrative. I find it hard to believe that the antisemitism faced by the European Jews in the late ninteenth and early twentieth centuries was the same as the antisemitism in the Arab world. The forces that put the European Jews in a position of power and alienation probably weren't present in the pre-capitalist Arab world. So I'd love to know the processes through which the Arab Jews came to identify with the Zionists. In fact while were here I'd need a history of Jews in the Muslim worlds

I'm interested to see how they fared within Israel adjusting to the strange new sociopolitical rules. I'm interested to see how they adapted to the new politics of language. Arab was a dirty word for a while, what happened to their native tongues?


More on this later when I have time....
By Tonic
#1467093
I'm not so interested in Warfare. What interests me is Nationbuilding within Israel, how did all of these groups integrate into one country? The example of the Arab Jews is interesting because it shows that even within Judaism, there's a hierarchy of race. I'm interested to see how a group of European Zionists convinced a group of Arab Jews to share the same indentity and intertwine their fates. I'm suspicious of the simplistic antisemitism narrative. I find it hard to believe that the antisemitism faced by the European Jews in the late ninteenth and early twentieth centuries was the same as the antisemitism in the Arab world. The forces that put the European Jews in a position of power and alienation probably weren't present in the pre-capitalist Arab world. So I'd love to know the processes through which the Arab Jews came to identify with the Zionists. In fact while were here I'd need a history of Jews in the Muslim worlds

I'm interested to see how they fared within Israel adjusting to the strange new sociopolitical rules. I'm interested to see how they adapted to the new politics of language. Arab was a dirty word for a while, what happened to their native tongues?

The other thing that interests me is efforts made (pre Israeli in particular) by Zionists and Muslims to work together. Transcending nationalism is usually a Socialist endavour, hence my lean to the left


Love to read your insights. Though it is more hierarchy of social and econonical status rather than hierarchy of race. In the 19th century the Sepharadics (like D'israeli) were in the top. The Askenazi were the poor
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By Tailz
#1467733
Danholo wrote:
Another book that was recommended by a friend is titled "The Seventh Million: The Israelis and the Holocaust" by Tom Segev.

This is probably a book Nets and tailz would probably enjoy as well!

I'll have to look that up one day. Sounds very interesting.

Pleb wrote:
I have a few opinions and I want to justify them with cherrypicked facts. That's the way PoFo taught me to argue.

Aahhh, cherry picking. I try not to cherry pick, but one can not help it at times as selective use of data is how most argument platforms are built to prove one case or another - but O do recommend against it. Broaden your horizons, take in as much as you can, absorb as much fact (not here-say) about your subject as you can.

I'm constantly swallowing up information, and thus my stance on issues waxes and wanes depending upon the information I have at that particular time. In a way I find it interesting how people try to fix their perceptions to one stand point, and then become confounded when information arises that contradicts that stand point, but yet have invested so much in their position that they can't accept the new data as anything other than flawed information.

So I'd recommend against cherry-picking, dive into the literature and search for details, any details, about the subject your interested in. Take for example my hobby of studying the Second World War - I have read good stuff from Allied folks, but the information by the guys on the-other side of the hill is also very interesting.

I'm not so interested in Warfare. What interests me is Nationbuilding within Israel, how did all of these groups integrate into one country? The example of the Arab Jews is interesting because it shows that even within Judaism, there's a hierarchy of race. I'm interested to see how a group of European Zionists convinced a group of Arab Jews to share the same indentity and intertwine their fates. I'm suspicious of the simplistic antisemitism narrative. I find it hard to believe that the antisemitism faced by the European Jews in the late ninteenth and early twentieth centuries was the same as the antisemitism in the Arab world. The forces that put the European Jews in a position of power and alienation probably weren't present in the pre-capitalist Arab world. So I'd love to know the processes through which the Arab Jews came to identify with the Zionists. In fact while were here I'd need a history of Jews in the Muslim worlds

Thats very interesting, I'd love to look into that as well. Have you looked into how those Arabs became Jews? Their own personal history and origins?

I'm interested to see how they fared within Israel adjusting to the strange new sociopolitical rules. I'm interested to see how they adapted to the new politics of language. Arab was a dirty word for a while, what happened to their native tongues?

More than likely suppressed as I assume after the wars, being an Arab in Israel would not have been advantageous considering the Arabs just tried to invade.

The other thing that interests me is efforts made (pre Israeli in particular) by Zionists and Muslims to work together. Transcending nationalism is usually a Socialist endavour, hence my lean to the left

I have to say I have been quite interested in this aspect for a long time - there must be some research relating to Jewish and Arab relations prior to Zionism itself. As I always thought the true conflict between Arab and Jew started with the arrival of separatist Zionist Jews in comparison to the Jews who already were there living as a apart of the existing communities.
By Tonic
#1467801
Taliz, what is your interest in the middle east? Are you a student in the subject?
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#1467831
An author Nets quoted wrote:Remember another thing: the Arab people gained a large slice of the planet. Not thanks to its skills or its great virtues, but because it conquered and murdered and forced those it conquered to convert during many generations.

This is the fake history of the Arab world that is implanted in the minds of many people in the US because of media.

It is a lie that helps Euros (including Jewish ones) feel better about killing everyone all over the world in order to gain control of their resources. Israel was defenitely founded this way. Morocco, Egypt and Iraq... they were not "conquered" by Islam. Their leaders converted to it.
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By Tailz
#1467893
Tonic wrote:
Taliz, what is your interest in the middle east? Are you a student in the subject?

Does it matter what my interest in the middle east is? Be my interest because I am working on a sociopolitical study of the region and its impact of global trends for my university paper - or if I am an arm-chair onlooker concerned that there are people killing other people for no real good reason other than religious rhetoric and belief in some mystical superiority.

QatzelOk wrote:
This is the fake history of the Arab world that is implanted in the minds of many people in the US because of media.

It is a lie that helps Euros (including Jewish ones) feel better about killing everyone all over the world in order to gain control of their resources. Israel was defenitely founded this way. Morocco, Egypt and Iraq... they were not "conquered" by Islam. Their leaders converted to it.

Can we agree that at various different times throughout history, most religious sects tried (with varying degrees of success) to forcefully (by sword, bullet, bomb, or money) convert people to their religion. The Christians, Muslims, and Jews all did it at one point in time or another.

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