US told: Go Green, or don't bother coming at all - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#1478029
US told to go green on carbon emissions or lose EU flights

* Dan Milmo, transport correspondent
* The Guardian,
* Saturday March 15 2008




US airlines must pay for their carbon dioxide emissions or face a curb on flights to the European Union, the EU transport commissioner warned yesterday.

The green ultimatum was issued by Jacques Barrot as the transatlantic airline market undergoes its biggest shakeup in 30 years when limits on flights between the EU and US are lifted this month. Barrot said negotiations on a second phase for the treaty will include a demand that US carriers join the EU emissions trading scheme or an equivalent system in the US.

He added that requests by Washington for data on passengers overflying the US are disproportionate and will not be accepted by the EU, which fears that security measures across the Atlantic are becoming too draconian.

However, the environmental dispute with the US, which is refusing to let airlines join a carbon trading scheme, is likely to escalate following Barrot's comments on "open skies" negotiations.

Discussions on a second phase with the US department of transportation begin in May and Barrot said the EU had the power to withdraw flying rights if a deal is not reached.

"It's always possible to imagine reducing the number of flights or suspending certain rights," he said, adding that a member of the US Congress environment committee believed a deal will be possible once the Bush administration ends.

"He told me that attitudes are changing. Particularly with Bush and Cheney gone, there is a real hope of things moving on. The new administration will be under pressure to take new measures."

EU airlines must join the emissions trading scheme in 2012, which could add up to £13 to the price of a return flight as carriers buy "carbon credits".

All airlines flying in and out of the EU must subscribe to the scheme but the International Air Transport Association has warned that 170 countries oppose the move.

European carriers want foreign rivals coopted on to the scheme because airlines who refuse to buy carbon credits will offer lower fares. The transport secretary, Ruth Kelly, also waded into the argument last year, accusing the UN's International Civil Aviation Organisation of committing a "very great failing" in not setting up a global emissions scheme for airlines.

Barrot will also demand that the US government lift restrictions on foreign ownership of airlines and accept EU security procedures. Under the open skies terms, EU states can suspend flights from the US to Europe if insufficient progress is made on a second phase by 2010. The suspensions can take place from 2012.

Barrot described a request for data on all passengers flying over the US as excessive. "Any demand has to be a proportionate response to existing security problems."

source

Go Europe!, Go Europe!, Go Europe!

This story neatly puts the difference between the US and Europe into the spotlight. The US is all about doing nothing that might endanger the ability of the rich airline owners to line their pockets, and a power-crazed attitude to 'security'. Europe is more interested in reducing the environmental damage posed by air-travel, and (sadly) free-trade.
User avatar
By Nets
#1478338
I agree with the EU on the environmental issues here, about time.

I part ways when it comes to security...I don't trust EU airline security.
By PBVBROOK
#1478655
This story neatly puts the difference between the US and Europe into the spotlight. The US is all about doing nothing that might endanger the ability of the rich airline owners to line their pockets, and a power-crazed attitude to 'security'. Europe is more interested in reducing the environmental damage posed by air-travel, and (sadly) free-trade.


I have no problem with the EU requiring carbon credits. I am all for trade protectionism which is what this is. I think the US should do it too. Tax countries that do not pay as much as we do to level the playing field. This would be very good for US industry. And since our industry is among the cleanest in the world would be very good for the environment.

This isn't about the environment as much as it is about the 11 sterling return.
User avatar
By Nets
#1478689
PBVBROOK wrote:And since our industry is among the cleanest in the world would be very good for the environment.


Um...what? Look I am one of America's biggest fans on the board but American Industry is far from clean. Along with Canada and Australia our country has an abysmal industrial record. We are only "clean" when referenced against backwards countries like China and India, and even then it isn't so clear cut.

I'll disagree with the Reds on the board on almost everything but the environment, here they are right.
User avatar
By Rancid
#1478713
I"m all for trying to protect the environment.. but carbon credits sounds like a money grab.
By sploop!
#1478912
carbon credits sounds like a money grab.


implemented poorly, they are. But a good scheme can make enough of a difference to make it worthwhile. The key is to make sure the money you grab is actually used to reduce future carbon release, rather than to fund someone's pension fund.
User avatar
By Andres
#1478917
RancidWannaRiot wrote:I"m all for trying to protect the environment.. but carbon credits sounds like a money grab.
A credit system seems to have worked pretty well to reduce sulfur dioxide emissions in the US. It is a good incentive for companies to pollute less without forcing them to upgrade their technology at an arbitrary date.
By Falx
#1478918
I part ways when it comes to security...I don't trust EU airline security.



Number of EU (27 countries in total) flights hijacked since 2000: 0.
Number of US flights hijacked since 2000: 4.

We must distrust ability and put our faith in ... faith.
User avatar
By Rancid
#1479086
Number of EU (27 countries in total) flights hijacked since 2000: 0.
Number of US flights hijacked since 2000: 4.

We must distrust ability and put our faith in ... faith.


That means absolutely nothing. 0 hijacks in Europe doesn't mean they have better security. It could me hijackers just don't have a good enough reason to hijack EU planes
User avatar
By Nets
#1479095
Falx, your states aren't correct.

Wikipedia

Examples of either European airlines being hijacked or planes being hijacked from European cities, since 2000.
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#1479280
Rancid wrote:I"m all for trying to protect the environment.. but carbon credits sounds like a money grab.

Actually, capitalism is a money grab.

Carbon credits are a way of eliminating an externality that threatens to kill us all in a glorious Rapture of market failure. Getting people to pay for the damage they cause is hardly a grab.
User avatar
By Rancid
#1479284
Aren't carbon credits bought and sold on a trading market..

sounds like capitalism to me.

Anyway, i'm sure some dirty politician will pocket a lot of the money that's supposed to go to green house reduction projects.
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#1479306
Aren't carbon credits bought and sold on a trading market..

sounds like capitalism to me.

So the last century and a half of NO CARBON TRADING was not capitalism? What was it then? A free ride for a few priveleged rich people?
User avatar
By Rancid
#1479373
So the last century and a half of NO CARBON TRADING was not capitalism? What was it then? A free ride for a few priveleged rich people?


No, there was still capitalism. There just wasn't a market for trading carbon credits. That's all.

Just like there was capitalism before there was a NASDAQ, or NYSE.

In other words, the absence of a particular market doesn't mean capitalism didn't exist.
By Falx
#1479562

Falx, your states aren't correct.


Yes they are. Read your own "source". Unless of course Turkey, Russia or the Philippines got admitted on the special "Keep quiet as shit about it" ascension protocol in the last week.

That means absolutely nothing. 0 hijacks in Europe doesn't mean they have better security. It could me hijackers just don't have a good enough reason to hijack EU planes


But enough to blow up trains? Come now, if the terrorist cell thought it could have pulled it off they would have hijacked a plane and crashed that.
By PBVBROOK
#1479693
It is absurd to expect the US to traffic in carbon credits when China and India are excluded on the rediculous premise that these two industrial giants need to be allowed to "catch up".

The US should ignore this Robin Hood money grab and work on our own solution to the problem.

I am a bona-fide tree hugging Prius driver but this scheme is even to rediculous for me.
User avatar
By Rancid
#1479696
It is absurd to expect the US to traffic in carbon credits when China and India are excluded on the rediculous premise that these two industrial giants need to be allowed to "catch up".


exactly.. if it really were about the environment, they would force china and India to get involved in the scheme

Qatz:

Has carbon credit trading actually reduce emissions?
User avatar
By Andres
#1479721
PBVBROOK wrote:It is absurd to expect the US to traffic in carbon credits when China and India are excluded on the rediculous premise that these two industrial giants need to be allowed to "catch up".

The US should ignore this Robin Hood money grab and work on our own solution to the problem.
The article says that all airlines flying into Europe will have to comply. Since apparently 170 countries complained, and there are not 170 developed countries, it would seem chinese and indian airlines will also have to be involved. If the order stands the airlines will have two options and neither of those will be ignoring it.

I am a bona-fide tree hugging Prius driver but this scheme is even to rediculous for me.
Do you also consider the credit system that helped reduce sulfur dioxide emissions ridiculous? And since it was successful, it doesn't seem obvious why it is ridiculous.
By sploop!
#1479727
I am a bona-fide tree hugging Prius driver


:lol:

The Prius is an absolute joke, not an especially funny one at that, in terms of carbon. I think the marketing-men have claimed another victim!
User avatar
By Oxymoron
#1484276
Perhaps they should follow this by putting an embargo on all Chinese made goods.
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