[Doomhammer]

Edit: You people have no appreciation for latin titles. Changed.

Turkish PM attacks proposed ban
Recep Tayyip Erdogan
Mr Erdogan's party has been under investigation for six months
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has criticised a proposal to ban his ruling AK Party as being against the "national will".

He was speaking after Turkey's chief prosecutor asked the country's Constitutional Court to ban the party, accusing it of anti-secular activities.

Turkey's secularist constitution does not allow any religious influence on the operation of the state.

The AK Party, which has Islamist roots, won last year's general elections.

In announcing his indictment, prosecutor Abdurrahman Yalcinkaya said he believed there was enough evidence to show the party had contravened Turkey's secular constitution.

He also revealed the party had been under investigation for six months.

Headscarf controversy

"The action taken yesterday is not aimed at the Justice and Development Party [AKP] but the will of the nation," Mr Erdogan said.

"No one can say that [AKP supporters] are a focal point of anti-secular activities," he added.

The AKP is already locked in a battle with Turkey's secular elite, backed by the powerful military, over recent changes to a ban on wearing headscarves.

The Constitutional Court is reviewing an appeal by the main pro-secular opposition party on the validity of parliament's constitutional amendments in February to allow women to wear Islamic headscarves at universities.

The AKP has argued that the headscarf ban unfairly bars large numbers of girls from higher education in a nation where about 66% of women wear the scarf.

Many secularists in the country equate the wearing of the headscarf with political Islam.

The AKP has its roots in a banned Islamist party.

But the government of Prime Minister Erdogan - which is negotiating for Turkey to join the EU - has insisted that the party's political views have changed.

BBC

ANKARA – Turkish Daily News

Chief Public Prosecutor Abdurrahman Yalçinkaya has filed a court request for the closure of ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP), accusing the party of "being the focal point of anti-secular activities."

Yalçınkaya had earlier warned AKP that its members’ declarations and activities ran against secularism.

A Constitutional change last year brought stricter criteria for party closure. A party needs to be a “focal point” for anti-constitutional activities.

Yalçınkaya underlined Erdoğan’s speech in Spain at the alliance of civilizations summit to the effect that “no ban could be imposed on political symbols,” advocating entry of Islamic headscarf to universities. Prosecutor asserted that symbols explicitly representing allegiance to a religious belief swill break up public order.

A recent government attempt to lift a decades-old ban on wearing the Islamic headscarf in universities again prompted the opposition to accuse the government of having Islamist motives.

Erdogan, like many others in his party, were involved in Turkeys political Islam movement and was jailed in the past for reciting, at a political rally, a poem a court deemed to be inciting religious hatred.
Yalçınkaya’s reasons for demand to the Constitutional Court for AKP’s closure are similar to ones that led disbanding of Turkey’s former Islamic parties, like Welfare Party (RP) and Virtue Party (FP).

TDN

Other links:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/18bcec0c-f234 ... fd2ac.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/14/ ... turkey.php



This is interesting. I sure nothing will come of it, but it is an interesting development none the less.

[Doomhammer]

Wow, I'm surprised that no one commented on this. I know the investigations and the legal proceedings will take months but this is serious shit.



By the way, the Istanbul stock market shrunk by 7.36% today. So it begins.

[Spin]

What is this likely to mean for Turkish democracy?

Is there a possibility of a military coup? Surely if anything does come of this then it will lead to confrontation between the generals and the President?

[hadzo]

It does sound serious … but it’s also ridiculous. To go to such extend of disagreement over a scarf … wtf!

[Annatar]

Weren't Erdogan's last political parties banned on the same grounds?

[Vanasalus]

This case constitute a dark day for Turkish legal system. If succeeds, which will be the end of democratic order as we speak, it will be a dark and shameful day for whole Turks.

But, my hopes are high. This case is the last writhing of old order, which was rejected and humiliated by overwhelming majority of the people. Turkey will never go back the days of oppression and corruption. So, that sinister gang, pushing prosecutor open this judicious case, can suck my shoes: The day of reckoning is near.

[Doomhammer]

What is this likely to mean for Turkish democracy?

That rule of law is more important than parliamentary interests. That is, if they are indeed found guilty of these charges, the said ministers and officials, maybe even the party has to be closed down.

Richard Nixon was impeached and so could these guys be, if they are, indeed, guilty.

Is there a possibility of a military coup?

No. They are too afraid to do that. Perhaps they did give some incentives for the opening of this case.

Surely if anything does come of this then it will lead to confrontation between the generals and the President?

The President is no longer affiliated with any political groupings (as he is the president), ergo it is unlikely that there will be that kind of confrontation.

To go to such extend of disagreement over a scarf … wtf!

It's not just that. There is more to it than just the headscarf. Admittedly, most of the charges have to do with religion and secularism, but the issue is deeper than that.

Weren't Erdogan's last political parties banned on the same grounds?

Yes. In fact the guy currently in charge of making the constitution led the way with the closing of the said parties. Figures that he is now supporting what he fought against. Ergun Ozbudun is an eccentric man and has had psychiatric help in the past. lol

Edit:

This case constitute a dark day for Turkish legal system.

It is dark because they are doing their job and people with certain interests are unhappy with it?

If succeeds, which will be the end of democratic order as we speak, it will be a dark and shameful day for whole Turks.

If it succeeds, either the remaining MPs will form a new party or there will be new elections. Stop blowing things out of proportion, drama queen.

Turkey will never go back the days of oppression and corruption.

The latter goes with out saying... *cough*

So, that sinister gang, pushing prosecutor open this judicious case, can suck my shoes:

They have a right to do it. "Freedom" isn't a one way thing, you know.

The day of reckoning is near.

Hallelujah!

[Vanasalus]

Yes. In fact the guy currently in charge of making the constitution led the way with the closing of the said parties. Figures that he is now supporting what he fought against. Ergun Ozbudun is an eccentric man and has had psychiatric help in the past. lol

It is worth noting Doom is is quite content with 1982 constitution, which was prepared under the auspices of a fascist military junta. Doom's political pattern is quite obvious: but somehow when I blame him being a fascist, he goes berserk on me.

Regarding to new constitution... Doom already knows that the template for new constitution is being prepared by a large number of distinguished scholars. And, Prof Ozbudun is just one of them. It is worth reminding that Prof Erbudun is a distinguished professor of law in Bilkent University, where Doom is a student. He is prolific publisher of articles and writer of 12 books, printed by respected publishers such as Princeton University Press.

But of course, these records have no importance. Because, Doom says he is an eccentric and crazy man. And, that is a nice example of how our ultra-secularists conduct their discussions.

It is dark because they are doing their job and people with certain interests are unhappy with it?

It is a dark day because Mr. prosecutor has a case dossier prepared the incoherently appended newspaper cuts. The full text is available on the net, go and read. Very poor Turkish as well, I might add.

If it succeeds, either the remaining MPs will form a new party or there will be new elections. Stop blowing things out of proportion, drama queen.

Yes, quite likely. And, they will call a new general election and get 65% of votes. And you secularist Einsteins will then wonder what is wrong with this nation. Well, if you are looking for what is wrong, just look at the mirror.

The latter goes with out saying...

And of course, Doom knows better than I do that more than $70 billion evaporated from banking system following the post-modern coup of 1996, under the careful watch of ultra secular “elites”. Even the teenagers on the street know that all this fuss about secularism is artificial and a cover. It is cover to hide the real struggle that those ultra-secularists need to get their “milk” as before. And they know there in no milk for them in an open, transparent and democratic society. That is the real story that we must disccus.

They have a right to do it. "Freedom" isn't a one way thing, you know.

With all due respect, I will not take a lecture on foredooms from a fascist in self denial. But, But, since you happen to be a student of social studies, may be you need some reading on the “separation of powers” to avoid ridiculing yourself in the future.

[Doomhammer]

But of course, these records have no importance. Because, Doom says he is an eccentric and crazy man. And, that is a nice example of how our ultra-secularists conduct their discussions.

Oh really, is that so? See PM.

Very poor Turkish as well, I might add.

Is that kind of comment any different than what you accused me of saying about Ozbudun? You really are subjective.

And you secularist Einsteins will then wonder what is wrong with this nation. Well, if you are looking for what is wrong, just look at the mirror.

You are nothing but empty rhetoric.

And of course, Doom knows better than I do that more than $70 billion evaporated from banking system following the post-modern coup of 1996, under the careful watch of ultra secular “elites”.

Well, I don't think I said anything on the contrary. Corruption can be observed in practically every government we've had so far.

Even the teenagers on the street know that all this fuss about secularism is artificial and a cover. It is cover to hide the real struggle that those ultra-secularists need to get their “milk” as before. And they know there in no milk for them in an open, transparent and democratic society. That is the real story that we must disccus.

You amuse me.

I will not take a lecture on foredooms [sic] from a fascist in self denial.

Good for you. Your labels are worthless as your crackpot ideas, your unconditionally support for AKP and your shockingly poor insults.

But, But, since you happen to be a student of social studies, may be you need some reading on the “separation of powers” to avoid ridiculing yourself in the future.

I fail to see your point considering that the three branches are indeed separate and that this case can be viewed as a balancing behavior.

[Cid]

Although my reservations are growing with AKP, especially over her selective reform process and populistic approach to reforms, nevertheless I think such move to appeal to the closure of AKP is very unwise both for domestic politics of Turkey as well as foreign relations. Let aside that the appeal will be most likely unproductive in its goal, it will also miss its reasoning as AKP will only become seen as the 'people's' party against the 'elitists' conspiring its closure and gain more popular support. Not to mention the serious threat of politicization of the judiciary itself, which had already begun, seems only to be more propelled by the activist attitudes from different sides.

[Nets]

This will come to nothing, AKP hasn't done anything overtly theocratic that would warrant their banning, yet.

Let's hope it stays that way.

I can understand why they make some people nervous, Turks don't want their country to devolve and become like most other Muslim countries in the region, but I think this is premature.

[Doomhammer]

In any case, I don't think AKP will be banned; it is very unlikely. What is more likely is that several AKP ministers might be sacked (after months or perhaps even years) and that will be it. In the meantime, AKP will hopefully take a message and ease off their religious nonsense and that will be the end of it... that or the economy will go bust and angry mobs will take to the streets.

[Vanasalus]

Oh really, is that so? See PM.

Look, what you write in your PM is irrelevant to the content of discussion. The question on stake is whether he is eligible to be among the scholars, drafting a template for new constitution? To answer this question, we need to look at the factual records of him. Do you deny that he is a distinguished professor of law in Bilkent University? No, you do not. Do you deny that he is a prolific publisher of articles?No, you do not. Do you deny that he, so far, wrote 12 books, printed by respected publishers? No, you do not.

What you do is to PM me an argument which barely suits 10th grade student. I am sorry; if this is the way you shape your thoughts on issues, something fundamentally is wrong with you.

Is that kind of comment any different than what you accused me of saying about Ozbudun? You really are subjective.

Well, if you check my previous post, I said "go and read" the full text of the prosecutor case. If you do your homework, you will see what I mean.

You are nothing but empty rhetoric.

Yes, may be. But when I compare myself with someone who partially quotes me and gives a one line irrelevant response most of the time, I guess I proudly stand by my record.

Apart from that, near political history of Turkey has quite explicit examples showing the effects of such undemocratic measures on peoples mind. Just hours before prosecutor opened the case, all trade unions were on strike for 2 hours against the government's new bill on social security. AKP was hopeless to recover the support in Kurdish southeast after cross border operation. Business circles were pounding government for the possible risks of the emerging global recession.

And, then prosecutor opened his case. Suddenly, Trade unions quickly lined behind prime minister, business circles expressed unacceptability of such an case in a democratic country and the last but not the least, prime minister, visiting Kurdish south east, was greeted like a prophet by the locals.

Then, for my part, there are two possibilities. Either our ultra-secularists are full-fledged retards, or they are covert agents of ruling AKP.

Well, I don't think I said anything on the contrary. Corruption can be observed in practically every government we've had so far.

Of course, one needs to not to know how many digits are there in $70 billion to put it in the same league of ordinary corruption seen everywhere in the world.

You amuse me.

Real amusement must be intellectual shallowness of someone, if he/she is not aware of the real motives behind this war, waged by a bunch of fascist and “hungry” elite , and inflicted upon people and the democratic order of the Republic .

Good for you. Your labels are worthless as your crackpot ideas, your unconditionally support for AKP and your shockingly poor insults.

As I said before: you need a mirror.

I fail to see your point considering that the three branches are indeed separate and that this case can be viewed as a balancing behavior.

Surely, there is an appalling ideological caricature, if one is content with a “democratic” country ruled by court verdicts.

[Doomhammer]

Look, what you write in your PM is irrelevant to the content of discussion.

True. But it was relevant to your inquiry.

What you do is to PM me an argument which barely suits 10th grade student.

Technically, it could suit any age group since it was not an argument per se for my assertion (I cannot reveal specific events), I merely wanted you to know that I have foundations for this assertion (on which I cannot comment further on but keep it in mind).

if this is the way you shape your thoughts on issues, something fundamentally is wrong with you.

Well no it isn't but it is fairly odd that he zealously led the case against AKP's predecessor but that he made a 180 degree turn as far as his views on religion in politics is concerned. That is a bit odd.

Suddenly, Trade unions quickly lined behind prime minister, business circles expressed unacceptability of such an case in a democratic country and the last but not the least, prime minister, visiting Kurdish south east, was greeted like a prophet by the locals.

I am under the impression that, at least where the trade unions are concerned, it wasn't support to the AKP but rather a disapproval of the proposed banning which is perceived to be undemocratic by some people.

Either our ultra-secularists are full-fledged retards, or they are covert agents of ruling AKP.

There is evidence to support both of your assertions.

Of course, one needs to not to know how many digits are there in $70 billion to put it in the same league of ordinary corruption seen everywhere in the world.

Well, I don't disagree with you but making such an argument, that the quantitative value assigned to the nature of the corruption does not seem sound. The fact that there is corruption (even if relatively less) does not absolve absolve any side from guilt and arguing that one side is more virtuous than the other just doesn't seem reasonable, at least in my humble (according to you probably illogical) opinion.

Real amusement must be intellectual shallowness of someone, if he/she is not aware of the real motives behind this war,

Yes I am aware of it, thank you kindly for pointing out that these political activities are "wars". Politics is struggle for power, and there are ulterior motives on both sides. The secular elite (if they exist) have ignoble motives of restoring their rule (and in doing other evil things which would be expected from them). Is it not possible that these religious nuts have ulterior motives as well?

As I said before: you need a mirror.

I must reciprocate your comment, although I realize you probably don't like mirrors - you can interpret this comment in any way you please.

if one is content with a “democratic” country ruled by court verdicts

The country isn't ruled by a court verdict, and it probably won't be either. This is something that had the potential to happen and so it has. Why have a Constitutional Court if you it won't be used to question governments, regardless of their support base?