[Beren]

Israelis and Palestinians have blamed each other for an explosion that killed a mother and her four children in Gaza.

Doctors and residents in Beit Hanoun blamed Israeli tank fire, but the Israeli army said explosives carried by Palestinian militants were responsible.

The army had attacked two gunmen from the air, who must have been carrying explosives that then blew up, it said.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas condemned the violence, saying it was obstructing the peace process.

The children were aged between one and six years old, medics said.

Reuters news agency cited medical staff saying that another Palestinian civilian was also killed in the blast.

'Period of quiet'

In separate incidents, two militants were also killed during clashes with Israeli troops around Beit Hanoun on Monday.

The area is often used by Palestinian militants to launch rockets at Israel.

Clashes between Israeli ground forces and Palestinian militants on Sunday in nearby Beit Lahiya left a 14-year-old girl dead and eight others injured.

On Friday, the Palestinian Islamist movement, Hamas, proposed a six-month "period of quiet" in Gaza, which it said could then be extended to the West Bank.

Israel dismissed the proposal as a ruse to allow Hamas to "re-arm and re-group".

Breakfast

Israeli ground forces moved into the Gaza Strip early on Monday morning and entered Beit Hanoun, not far from the border.

During the incursion, a missile smashed through the ceiling of one family's one-storey house while they were having breakfast, witnesses said.

A mother and four of her children - two girls and two boys aged between one and six - were killed, doctors at a local hospital said.

"I left the house just moments before to look for one of my children. I heard the sound of the explosion, and when I returned to the house I found my wife and my children," said 70-year-old father Ahmed Abu Maateq.

"They had been eating breakfast and my wife had been holding our youngest child in her hands," he said.

"I hope to God that the same thing that happened to me happens to whoever fired that missile at my house, that what happened to my wife and children happens to his family," he said.

Several other people were injured by the blast, some of them critically.

Residents said no militants were killed by the explosion.

'Human shields'

An Israeli military spokeswoman said the air force and army had attacked gunmen who fired upon its troops during an operation in the area launched to "ensure that rocket crews, snipers and tunnel diggers are kept away from the border fence".



Aftermath of the raid in the Gaza
The Israeli army said it had "targeted from the air two Palestinian gunmen who were approaching the soldiers while carrying large bags on their backs.

"A big explosion erupted on the scene... indicating the presence of bombs and explosives in the gunmen's bags," the army said.

"As a result of this big explosion, extensive damage was caused to a house that was near the gunmen and uninvolved civilians were hit."

Mr Abbas told the Palestinian Wafa news agency the incident "does not serve efforts being exerted to achieve calm, and it obstructs the peace process".

Hamas said one of its fighters had earlier shot an Israeli solder in Beit Hanoun. The Israeli military confirmed a soldier was slightly wounded.

More than 400 Palestinians have been killed in the Gaza Strip in the last five months, many of them civilians.

The militant group Hamas has run the Gaza Strip since June 2007, when its fighters drove out the forces of Mr Abbas's Fatah movement.

Also on Monday, the UN said it would resume deliveries of food aid to the Gaza Strip.

The UN suspended distribution of aid last week amid fuel shortages caused by cuts in Israeli supplies to the area and a strike by Palestinian petrol station owners.

BBC NEWS

When will that shit stop? Hamas' war against Israel is totally insane, Israel is a lot better in killing people either. Israel should be recognized by everyone. It may have been a mistake, that the international community decided to create a Jewish state in the Middle East, but it finally happened and Israel survived. Moreover, it became either absolutely or relatively stronger and stronger. Killing each other's children by Kassam-rockets, suicide bombers, Merkavas and F-16 fighters is totally crazy!

STOP IT!

[GandalfTheGrey]

Israel should be recognized by everyone. It may have been a mistake, that the international community decided to create a Jewish state in the Middle East, but it finally happened and Israel survived.

Israel is an anomaly - and a destructive one at that. The recalcitrants are not the ones who wish to destroy this anomaly, but rather the ones who wish to sustain it. Long term demographic trends will ensure that it is impossible for Israel to survive for much longer. Defending such a destructive and ultimately doomed entity is far more extremist and irrational than recognising that Israel will thankfully only be a short nightmare that will be over soon.

[War Angel]

It should be noted that the civilians were killed by a secondar explosion, caused by explosives the terrorists had in their car and on their person. Israel does not target civilians, and this unfortunate case is no different.

If Palestinian terrorists take their fight away from civilian population, Israel will be able to kill them safely and without any risk for innocent bystanders. The terrorists know this, of-course, and therefore operate from within densely populated areas.

[Nets]

Gandalf, is it any more of an anomaly than the "white" Australia you and your ilk have constructed? Or were the Australians just far more successful at wiping out the darkies?

[sploop!]

Israel is an anomaly - and a destructive one at that. The recalcitrants are not the ones who wish to destroy this anomaly, but rather the ones who wish to sustain it. Long term demographic trends will ensure that it is impossible for Israel to survive for much longer. Defending such a destructive and ultimately doomed entity is far more extremist and irrational than recognising that Israel will thankfully only be a short nightmare that will be over soon.

QFT

Israel does not target civilians

QFZLs

[DemonicRage]

The Israel eperiment is almost at an end....

[GandalfTheGrey]

Gandalf, is it any more of an anomaly than the "white" Australia you and your ilk have constructed? Or were the Australians just far more successful at wiping out the darkies?

Regardless of the situation in Australia, it doesn't change
the situation for Israel. Besides, the two situations couldn't be any more different: the existence of native Australians is threatened by the forces of demography, not the other way around. And Australia doesn't live on a tiny island surrounded by a sea of enemies.

[Nets]

Gandalf, if telling yourself that is what helps you sleep at night after profiting from the displacement and oppression of the natives, far be it from me to comment.

[Donna]

There is no demographic threat to Israel.

[Tailz]

HUman Shields

I wonder what the outcry would be if the Palastinians started to use Israeli's as human shields like how the IDF has used Palastinians as human shields.

NetsNJFan87 wrote:

Gandalf, is it any more of an anomaly than the "white" Australia you and your ilk have constructed? Or were the Australians just far more successful at wiping out the darkies?

You should look up the White Australia Policy from a few years ago. Makes one's stomach churn at the thought.

Horrible to think, but the Whites were quite adept at stamping their mark on Australia, and now we are trying to reverse 200 years of fucked up bigoted choices.

The difference is that in Israel, what we have already learned is wrong, you still consider to be your privileged right.

But even then, taking this argument to its base elements - because white Australia did this, does that give Israel the green light to do the same?

Or anyone else for that matter?

Gandalfthegrey wrote:

Regardless of the situation in Australia, it doesn't change the situation for Israel. Besides, the two situations couldn't be any more different: the existence of native Australians is threatened by the forces of demography, not the other way around. And Australia doesn't live on a tiny island surrounded by a sea of enemies.

And that threat from demographics came about because of a policy to populate the country with White Europeans. But also native communities were turned from their nomandic way of life to static settlements, while at the same time farmland took over their cultural grounds.

There are some parallels between the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the situation of Australia and its past deals with its native peoples.

The thing is the Israeli's should be looking at how things turned out in Australia and learning from our mistakes, instead of saying, "They did it, so why can't we?"

NetsNJFan87 wrote:

Gandalf, if telling yourself that is what helps you sleep at night after profiting from the displacement and oppression of the natives, far be it from me to comment.

As a self confessed supporter of Zionism, is it not hypocritical of yourself to write such considering what Zionism has and still does - as I assume you point to the example of Australia as a sample of what not to do.

Donald wrote:

There is no demographic threat to Israel.

If there is no threat, then why all the fuss over maintaining a Jewish majority in the states population demographics?

There is a perceived threat to those who believe that he state should be an ethnic state of Jews, for Jews.

[MVictorP]

World Opinion: So, the IDF action in Palestine killed a whole lot in innocent civilians?

Israel: Yeah, but not intentionally... sad accident... IDF does not target civilians... terrorists... hiding among their population... using human shields... acts of war... retribution... we're so very sorry.

WO: So, you think about preventing these accidents in the future, with, for exemple better planning, or using scalpels instead of sabres?

Israel: No. Not at all.

[Ter]

MVictorP:

World Opinion: So, the IDF action in Palestine killed a whole lot in innocent civilians?

World Opinion, as you call it, does not give a damn about Israeli innocent civilians being intentionally maimed and killed and psychologically terrorised by daily rocket fire.

Until that time comes, World Opinion can kiss my ass, if you pardon my French.

Ter
PS. the "world opinion" you quote only exists on leftist and most Muslim websites and by blind block-voting in UN bodies.

[Tailz]

The thing is Ter, world opinion also knows that the Palestinians are also being psychologically terrorized on a daily basis by Israelis. The difference is that as far as world opinion is concerned, far more Palestinians end up getting killed by Israeli's than Israeli's are being killed by Palestinians.

[MVictorP]

Maybe if Pals rocket launchers wrote "Not Intentional: Sorry!" on their Qassams, surely Israel will pass them as sad accident too?

World Opinion, as you call it, does not give a damn about Israeli innocent civilians being intentionally maimed and killed and psychologically terrorised by daily rocket fire.

Well, maybe World Opinion does give a damn, but is baffled by the weight of the retribution coming from a rich, militarized and industrialized country occupying a poor, defenseless and oppressed nation it has robbed and violated.

Maybe World Opinion has deducted that your kills (wich are way out of proportion) are only less "intentional" than the Pals' solely on the PR stage.

Until that time comes, World Opinion can kiss my ass, if you pardon my French.

World Opinion is resilient; It will continue to say that the Emperor is naked when he is even if all news source are going to be bought by the zionists and turned to shnitz (if you pardon my Hebrew) as far as ME matters go. We perfectly know that Israel does not care one bit about World Opinion as long as the US still follow meekly.

PS. the "world opinion" you quote only exists on leftist and most Muslim websites and by blind block-voting in UN bodies.

In this case, you should get out of your priviledged Jewish ghetto and into the "rest of the world" a bit more; poeple are getting fed-up with your supremacism. Get a tan, for crying out loud.

[Ter]

tailz:

The difference is that as far as world opinion is concerned, far more Palestinians end up getting killed by Israeli's than Israeli's are being killed by Palestinians.

True, but there is a bigger, more significant difference: the Palestinians hurt Israeli civilians intentionally.

MVictorP:

Maybe if Pals rocket launchers wrote "Not Intentional: Sorry!" on their Qassams, surely Israel will pass them as sad accident too?

I hope you do not expect a response to such absurd statement?

In this case, you should get out of your priviledged Jewish ghetto

Hum, let's see, how to respond to this, it is really difficult for me to stoop down to your level, but I will try... OK. Victor, get out of your Mosque or Madrassah and stop being indoctrinated by your mullahs.

Ter

[MVictorP]

True, but there is a bigger, more significant difference: the Palestinians hurt Israeli civilians intentionally.

Ter, I don't think you read the intention well.

Maybe Palestinian rocket shooters just want the land back - the killings are thus, unintentional...

I don't know about about you, but where I work, one too many "un-intentional" mistake will lead me to my firing. Why is that? in one word, responsability.

When too many un-intentional things happen in the environment you're responsible of, the reason is a) you are a fuck-up who makes a mess all the time or b) there are not so un-intentional.

The IDF is The Man when it enters the occupied territory. there is nothing that can stood up to them if they want to arrest one alledged criminal (a most barbaric mean for one who is acustomed to see alledged criminals shot in broad daylight instead of getting a trial, i'm sure), or dismantle some weapon-smuggling nest. As strange at it may sound, a 105mm round or a rocket from an Apache chopper fired in a densely populated area does have a good chance to make a lot of collateral damage.

Anti-personal charges, like the ones who still, to this day, kills civilians in Lebenon, are not a product of non-intention. The discourse, however is, and not-so-strangely, many take it as hard cash.

Hence my point about the discharge on the Qassam. If it is written, how much more official can it be?

OK. Victor, get out of your Mosque or Madrassah and stop being indoctrinated by your mullahs.

Do you seriously believe that I am as influenced by the segregationist elements of this conflict as you are yourself, Ter?

[Ter]

MVictorP:

Maybe Palestinian rocket shooters just want the land back - the killings are thus, unintentional...

What you wrote does not make sense. Thinking like that might absolve your conscience about the intentional killing of civilians, but the logic is lacking.

Do you seriously believe that I am as influenced by the segregationist elements of this conflict as you are yourself, Ter?

Yes, you are. I am merely polarised since 9/11.

Ter

[Tailz]

Ter wrote:

True, but there is a bigger, more significant difference: the Palestinians hurt Israeli civilians intentionally.

And so too do Israelis - both the IDF and Israel's own brand of militants hurt Palestinian civilians, difference is you just discount the harm that is done. The bigger difference is, that the violence is not one sided - as you seem to think it is.

MVictorP wrote:

Maybe Palestinian rocket shooters just want the land back - the killings are thus, unintentional...

Oh no I think the caused deaths from Palestinian rocket fire are very much intentional - lucky if they hit anything vital with unguided rockets - but intentional none the less. The difference is that to the Palestinian militant the deaths caused are in retaliation for the continuous suffering and deaths of the Palestinians themselves at the hands of Settlers and the IDF.

Its a nasty little cycle of violence, the Palestinians feel oppressed by the raids, missile attacks from helicopters and jets, travel restrictions, theft of land, military occupation presence, etc. So they launch rockets at Israel and send bombers in to blow up Israeli cafes. The Israeli's want to get in some revenge (yes revenge) and raid the Palestinians, restrict their movement, let settlers run free, launch missiles from helicopters and jets, and maintain a military presence with patrols, etc.

Can you see the cycle of violence?

[MVictorP]

Ter, Tailz; I now realize that sarcasm passes rather defectingly in writtings; Of course, the launcher's intentions are anything but noble; I was justy making a caricature, drawing a parallel between the blind, blundering Qassam and the IDF's 105mm tank round.

What you wrote does not make sense. Thinking like that might absolve your conscience about the intentional killing of civilians, but the logic is lacking.

Ter, the logic is lacking simply because you paid no intention to it when I expressed it in lenght from my previous post. Deliberately, carefully, you circumsized it to focus on the sole satiric line of my post. Well, one of them anyway.

Here is what you avoided:

I don't know about about you, but where I work, one too many "un-intentional" mistake will lead me to my firing. Why is that? in one word, responsability.

When too many un-intentional things happen in the environment you're responsible of, the reason is a) you are a fuck-up who makes a mess all the time or b) there are not so un-intentional.

The IDF is The Man when it enters the occupied territory. there is nothing that can stood up to them if they want to arrest one alledged criminal (a most barbaric mean for one who is acustomed to see alledged criminals shot in broad daylight instead of getting a trial, i'm sure), or dismantle some weapon-smuggling nest. As strange at it may sound, a 105mm round or a rocket from an Apache chopper fired in a densely populated area does have a good chance to make a lot of collateral damage.

Anti-personal charges, like the ones who still, to this day, kills civilians in Lebenon, are not a product of non-intention. The discourse, however is, and not-so-strangely, many take it as hard cash.

Yes, you are. I am merely polarised since 9/11.

I'll tell you what makes me chose to support the Palestinians; Empathy.

In Quebec, we, the French-speaking people of America are a distinct minority, which in itself contains a minority of English-speaking people inside of it: Our situation is, then, closer to the Israelis than the Pals.

However, as a colonized people for more than 300 years, we loathe abuse (and so should the Jews, yet...), and we can empathize with the abuse the Palestinians are experiencing as we so pleasingly write this pleasant correspondence.

It does not matter that one side is Jewish of race and religion or that the othe other one is Arab and Muslim; If it was the Palestinians that occupied and brutalized the Israelis, I assure you that we would be as pissed at the Palestinians as we are now with the Israelis; The act of oppressing is more important than the race or religion of the said oppressor.

And I suspect most of the world opinion thinks like that.

[Tonic]

GandalfTheGrey

Gandalf, is it any more of an anomaly than the "white" Australia you and your ilk have constructed? Or were the Australians just far more successful at wiping out the darkies?

Regardless of the situation in Australia, it doesn't change
the situation for Israel. Besides, the two situations couldn't be any more different: the existence of native Australians is threatened by the forces of demography, not the other way around. And Australia doesn't live on a tiny island surrounded by a sea of enemies.

What GandalfTheGrey said. Israel had to finish the ethnic cleansing in 1948.