[sploop!]

Fair enough. I just get a bit annoyed that the race card gets over-played.

It's really difficult not to get pushed to polar positions.

I find it very difficult to take a critical position on Israel and retain a critical position regarding certain other countries/organisations at the same time, if they are the victims of Israeli state sponsored violence. In other words, I tend to be more forgiving of Hamas/Hezbollah/whoever because I see them as reacting to Israel - I don't see they have any other choice. If they play nicely, they get their land stolen, if they fight back 'legally' they get slaughtered. They have no choice but to do the 'terrorist' thing... It sucks - I know that.

[Nets]

^ Israelis feel just as trapped though with their options.

They move the Palestians towards statehood (Oslo) or withdraw (Lebanon, Gaza) and they get increased terror. They repress the Palestinians (Operation Defensive Shield), they get less terror.

Look, I don't like seeing Palestinians die, I want a Palestinians state. But the Israeli peace camp feels just as betrayed by the self-destructive actions of the Palestinians as it does by the self-destructive actions of the Israeli right.

It's a shitty cycle.

For the record, I also get disgusted when certain Zionists play the anti-Semitism card so loosely...it renders the term meaningless and makes it harder to confront actual anti-semitesm, who do exist.

[Rodion]

Damned if we do, damned if we don't. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. It almost seems like the conflict has a life of its own, does it not? I think you're starting to get it.

[sploop!]

Now, if only we had some Palestinian PoFo members...

[Oxymoron]

The point is this Israel is a democrasy with full womens rights, a free economy and freedom of speech any one who critisizes Israel first before the Burhmas, the Saudia Arabias, the Syrias of the world is an outright Anti Semite.If Israel wanted to there would be no Palestinian issue but the constant show of restraint is not news worthy enough. Only pictures of Dead "bloodied" Children who turn out to be dolls and doctored pictures are shown of Israeli brutality. Where are the pictures of israeli Teen girls being rushed to the hospitals after a Night Club is bomb? Is Israel perfect no it isnt,but it certainly is no the cause of world problems as many like to claim. Perhaps people should focus on those Nations and cultures that practice ritual women beating,virtual enslavement of women, stoning and hanging for adultery and homosexuality, and female circumsisions. Lets get real it Osama started his war on America because of Saudia Arabias policies and interests not Israels.

[Maas]

They move the Palestians towards statehood (Oslo) or withdraw (Lebanon, Gaza) and they get increased terror.

The fact is that so far the move to Palestinian statehood goes along with enlarging the settlements. The withdraw of Lebanon is still just all talk. I can't say the same about the increase of terror.

[War Angel]

The fact is that so far the move to Palestinian statehood goes along with enlarging the settlements.

No, it wasn't.

The withdraw of Lebanon is still just all talk

Huh? How is it 'all talk'? There are no Israeli soldiers in Lebanon.

They move the Palestians towards statehood (Oslo) or withdraw (Lebanon, Gaza) and they get increased terror. They repress the Palestinians (Operation Defensive Shield), they get less terror.

And that's the whole dillema, Nets. What IS the right way? I, for one, am not sure. I wanna stop fighting (I'd love me some peace and quiet), but on the other hand, if I relent... I'm almost certainly done for. What should we do?

[Oxymoron]

[mb edit: do not feed the trolls]

[Maas]

Its Israels land so its not illegal. How about some goodwill from the Palestinians by not electing Hamas(Which doesnt recognize Israel and wants to eradicate it) as your goverment.

every foreign government with an oppinion about this, including Israel buddy from the start, the US sais it aint Israeli land. This makes your whole reasoning flawed.

[Oxymoron]

every foreign government with an oppinion about this, including Israel buddy from the start, the US sais it aint Israeli land. This makes your whole reasoning flawed.

Foreign opinions mean little on the ground, If the Israelis felt confident in the Palestinians wanting peace there would be a Palestinian State today with 1967 Borders. The issue is that a majority of Palestinians support the radical elements that make peace impossible and the minority of Jewish extremist use this as an excuse to get what they want which only drives the cycle.

[Maas]

Foreign opinions mean little on the ground

To some pro Israeli's, like religious extremists... indeed.
Religious extremism is always bad though.

minority of Jewish extremist use this as an excuse to get what they want which only drives the cycle.

minority?
Yeah well, in a way you're saying a minority of religious extremists somehow controles the elected mayority and dictates policies in the government into an endless spiral of war. Yeah well, maybe indeed. But don't go blaiming other people that the Israeli mayority is spineless.

[Oxymoron]

Yeah well, in a way you're saying a minority of religious extremists somehow controles the elected mayority and dictates policies in the government into an endless spiral of war. Yeah well, maybe indeed. But don't go blaiming other people that the Israeli mayority is spineless

The radicals play on the Majorities fears which are reinforced by constant Rocket attacks and suicide bombers, not helping matters is the Palestinians electing the same people who openly call for destruction of Israel.

[Maas]

The radicals play on the Majorities fears which are reinforced by constant Rocket attacks and suicide bombers, not helping matters is the Palestinians electing the same people who openly call for destruction of Israel.

Yeah well... guess what Israels role was with Hamas who could play on people's fears for getting their ass whooped for 60 years in a refuge camp? Nice to see that you agree with mee that the Israeli government is controled by radicals by the way. You're getting there

[Oxymoron]

Nice to see that you agree with mee that the Israeli government is controled by radicals by the way

I never said controlled but they definately play a disruptive and powerful role. If Israel was controlled by radicals like Hamas for the Palestinians there would be no more Palestinians today.

[DemonicRage]

How so???

Would you go in and bulldoze homes and shoot kids .. blockade food and aid. and starve them,?