Poll: 77% of Israeli Arabs would rather live in Israel than - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Maas
#1575228
Israel is golden mine for the Arabs gold diggers. Maas why don't you understand the nuance of Israeli Palestinian conflict?

You know the gold mine is at the other end of the middle east. And it is way more peacefull over there than in Israel. How much you may dislike that idea, but them Arabs over there are fucking rich. You don't understand even the simple idea of income!
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By Nets
#1575233
^ Maas, not for Palestinians it isn't. The Gulf states treat poor Arabs like slaves. Remember when Kuwait expelled 400,000 Palestinians in 1991?
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By MVictorP
#1575236
Tonic wrote:The greatest mistake of the Zionists was the unfinished war of 1948. If you decide you want the land be decisive and just finish the war; clean the territory with its hostile inhabitants. The world public opinion in 1948 was more favorable. Israel tried to be "human" and left most of the population but after few generations that wasn't enough for the new anti Zionists and they refer to the war as "ethnic cleansing" any way. Better would be to be serious with the ethnic cleansing back than.


This has to be written in a cynical matter, Tonic, lest it makes you condoning what the Nazis did during Barbarossa.

It's the concept of ethnic cleasing that is at fault, not its shoddy execution.

Nice North American worldwiew. Really. Unfortunately this most progressive idea didn't work in the Old World.


Okay, okay. How about "a smaller, non-expentionnist but still exclusive Jewish state protected by the UN", then?

I'm pretty sure that if Israel pulls back both the colonists and the IDF which makes their crime possible, compensate these Palestinians that were displaced and accept a UN mandate to police any given buffer zone out there for at least 30 years, things would go just fine.

That, however would be an admission of wrongdoing by the zionists, and it's what makes it about as utopic as the previous one. Too bad, because it would be the only thing that would guarantee Israel any prospect of lasting peace.
By Tonic
#1575282
MVictorP
This has to be written in a cynical matter, Tonic, lest it makes you condoning what the Nazis did during Barbarossa.


No I condon what Czechoslovakia did to Sudeten Germans and the Greco-Turk "Population Swap" that brought to its conductor the Nobel Prize.


The "ethnic cleansing" practice praised for the end solution of the Greco-Turk war and even won the nobel peace prize for its organizer - Fridtjof Nansen, Nobel peace prize Greco-Turkish war ( 1922-1923).

The "ethnic cleansing" as term, presumably a moral judgment intended to pathologize such attitudes, coined by one reporter, Roy Gutman from New York's "Newsday" paper during the last Balkans war. During the Greco-Turkish war it was called something else: "exchange of population".


In British Palestine

British Palesine's Peel Commission Report 1938

The cancer of conflict must be cut out. As Sir Walter Smiles, a Conservative member in British House of Commons said on November 24, 1938, during the debates on the Peel Commission Report, "No matter what sacrifice or discomfort people who were transferred were put to at one time, it might be better to get it over at once as the Greeks who left Asia Minor and went to Greece learned, rather than to be always at enmity with their neighbors".

Four Nobel Peace Prize winners have proposed population transfer - Sir Norman Angell, Christian Lange, Philip Noel-Baker (in the specific case of Palestine), and Dr. Fridtjof Nansen as the proponent of the Greco-Turkish exchange. This speaks volumes about the morality of transfer. And especially in our case. As Hoover wrote in 1954 when he reached the age of 80, replying to a congratulatory letter, which referred to his transfer plan, "We were on the only sane track!".



Nets
^ Maas, not for Palestinians it isn't. The Gulf states treat poor Arabs like slaves. Remember when Kuwait expelled 400,000 Palestinians in 1991?


Kuwait expelled 400,000 Palestinians in 1991 after the treason they faced from the Palestinian brothers when Saddam occupied Kuwait. Israel is not allowed to expel its own fifth columns after much worse disloyality on much longer time.

taliz


We don't hear any atrocity stories from Czechoslovakia, Poland, Greece, Turkey and even former Yugoslavia, when the ethnic cleansing was real and solved the problem. The current Israeli nightmare is the ongoing skirmish that no one sees its end.


We didn't hear about it because it was covered up by the state, why didn't the world hear about the holocaust till after Nazi Germany was defeated, because the Nazi state did its best to cover it up. Even the Israeli state has had its own state sponsored cover ups to cover assassinations that would make the Israeli state look bad if the truth leaked out.


Had to clarify. There are no atrociety stories *today* in Czechoslovakia, Poland, Greece, Turkey and even former Yugoslavia because the ethnic skirmishes are no more there. They solved it. Even Serbia is no more isolated and boycotted cause that phaze of history is over. But Israel Palestine conflict is not solved one way or another. It's still ongoing conflict. That's what fuels the skirmishes and the atrocities. One decicive measure could save all the future killings.

The decicive solution can be what MVictorP offers or ethnic cleansing Sudetenland style (poor Germans). Just solve it.

I find it appalling that your advocating ethnic cleaning! Obviously you didn't learn anything from the Holocaust. Jeez, had anyone advocated this (ethnic cleansing) about Jews the forum mods would come down on them like a ton-o-bricks. But nah, I am happy you can publicly get this off your chest, at least it exposes hate mongering trolls like you.


No you don't learn from the Holokult (TM by MVictorP). The Jews prayed the Nazis will end with Jewish expulsions and not much than this. This was the basic of the Nazi-Zionist negotiation (Haavara/transfer agreement) before the war and Stern Gang plan after the war was broke. Read history not just the book of Norman Finkelstein, the "son of Holocaust survivor" who could be a son of Kappo as well, you know. Many of them left to live.

I guess Norman Finkelstein's Holocaust Industry (where you get all your ugly knowledge) slander the Haavara agreement.
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By Tailz
#1575347
Tonic wrote:
Had to clarify. There are no atrociety stories *today* in Czechoslovakia, Poland, Greece, Turkey and even former Yugoslavia because the ethnic skirmishes are no more there. They solved it. Even Serbia is no more isolated and boycotted cause that phaze of history is over. But Israel Palestine conflict is not solved one way or another. It's still ongoing conflict. That's what fuels the skirmishes and the atrocities. One decicive measure could save all the future killings.

So just commit mass ethnic cleansing and be done with it, and that will make everything all right. A wrong is still a wrong.

The decicive solution can be what MVictorP offers or ethnic cleansing Sudetenland style (poor Germans). Just solve it.

Personally I find your "means justifies the ends" as vulgar as Hitlers finial solution to the Jewish Question (Poor Jews). Hitler was just trying to... solve it.

No you don't learn from the Holokult (TM by MVictorP). The Jews prayed the Nazis will end with Jewish expulsions and not much than this. This was the basic of the Nazi-Zionist negotiation (Haavara/transfer agreement) before the war and Stern Gang plan after the war was broke.

Oh come on, Hitler had been threatening the Jews since the 1930's! Are you as delusional as Stalin to think he'd sign an agreement that totally goes against everything he wrote about in Mine Kampf? Lucky the Zionist leaders were not that stupid, but the Stern Gang was, considering they offered to help the Nazi's - strange the Nazi's never took them up on the offer? What was it Stern wrote "Your the Master Race over there, we are the Master Race over here, so lets work together against a common foe." yes yes, really lovely literary pose.

Read history not just the book of Norman Finkelstein, the "son of Holocaust survivor" who could be a son of Kappo as well, you know. Many of them left to live.

Heh, your pissed he may be the Son of a Kappo, and thats enough to discredit everything he does to you? Guilt by association eh? Curious that it was Alan Dershowitz who started the rumor about Finkelstein's mother being a Kappo, I wonder why he did that?

You know, I know a guy who was a Kappo, and they went through hell just as much as any other concentration camp survivor. And in the finial days of the war, the SS were bumping off the Kappo's quicker than camp survivors. As the camp guards were shit scared of being ID'ed by the Kappos.

I guess Norman Finkelstein's Holocaust Industry (where you get all your ugly knowledge) slander the Haavara agreement.

I get my information from as many sources as possible - even people who saw the things I talk about first hand.
By Maas
#1575462
But Israel Palestine conflict is not solved one way or another. It's still ongoing conflict. That's what fuels the skirmishes and the atrocities. One decicive measure could save all the future killings.


So just commit mass ethnic cleansing and be done with it, and that will make everything all right. A wrong is still a wrong.

I'll remain a problem, because the people who did the cleansing think they know best how to solve that problem.
Oh come on, Hitler had been threatening the Jews since the 1930's!

It was the reason Einstein moved to the US.
By Tonic
#1575611
taliz
So just commit mass ethnic cleansing and be done with it, and that will make everything all right. A wrong is still a wrong.


All war is wrong. Nothing is more morally absolute wrong in "population swap" or "ethnic cleansing". If anything it's "relatively" less evil.

Lucky the Zionist leaders were not that stupid, but the Stern Gang was, considering they offered to help the Nazi's - strange the Nazi's never took them up on the offer? What was it Stern wrote "Your the Master Race over there, we are the Master Race over here, so lets work together against a common foe." yes yes, really lovely literary pose.


You read this bullshit in Lenny Brenner's 'Zionism in the Age of the Dictators', don't you?

Oh come on, Hitler had been threatening the Jews since the 1930's!


British propaganda I keep hearing over and over again. During the first two years of the war (ceratainly before) Germany was actively pushing the Jews to immigrate. It was Britain that locked the Jews into death trap.

Personally I find your "means justifies the ends" as vulgar as Hitlers finial solution to the Jewish Question (Poor Jews). Hitler was just trying to... solve it.


The anti-Holocaust card is your only card. Pathetic. The counter Holocaust Industry is all what protect you from historical rationality.

Heh, your pissed he may be the Son of a Kappo, and thats enough to discredit everything he does to you? Guilt by association eh? Curious that it was Alan Dershowitz who started the rumor about Finkelstein's mother being a Kappo, I wonder why he did that?


Norman Finkelstein is part of that Holocaust Industry (or Holokult, TM by MVictorP) though what he says is sweet to you ears. He's part of the Bullshit. Elie Wiesel, the poster boy of Holocaust Industry is another one.
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By Tailz
#1575961
Tonic wrote:
All war is wrong. Nothing is more morally absolute wrong in "population swap" or "ethnic cleansing". If anything it's "relatively" less evil.

Fighting a war to defend oneself from aggression, I don't think there is much wrong with that. It is when the defender passes over to become the aggressor when that war becomes unjust.

Conducting population swops or ethnic cleansing just compounds the error of aggressive war.

You read this bullshit in Lenny Brenner's 'Zionism in the Age of the Dictators', don't you?

Not first off, saw info about it in a doco about the SS, and they had comments about various negotiations between the Zionist organizations and Reinhad Heydrich, but I did eventually see references about comments made about such a Stern offered deal in that book, although I have not read that book. But even then, you dispute the Stern gang made the offer?

British propaganda I keep hearing over and over again. During the first two years of the war (ceratainly before) Germany was actively pushing the Jews to immigrate. It was Britain that locked the Jews into death trap.

British propaganda? Have you fallen out of your tree?

OK, I have got to hear this, how did the british lock the Jews into a death trap?

On a side note, in regard to the Germans pushing the Jews to leave. The Nazi's simply wanted to get rid of them, any way that could. And because a Nazi official saw how much trouble there was having to do the rounds of various government departments to get all the documentation stamped and signed for passports in order to leave - the Nazi's streamlined the process to be as efficient as possible to make it easy (and thus quicker) for Jews to leave Germany.

The anti-Holocaust card is your only card. Pathetic. The counter Holocaust Industry is all what protect you from historical rationality.

Your attempting to discredit me because I don't wish to see one group of people commit mass murder or ethnic cleansing upon another group of people - are you off your rocker?

As for my rationality of history, considering I have been studying the history of the Second World War for the last few years, that I have meet and talked with veterans of the Allies armies, the German army, and Holocaust survivors, and that I am considering doing a degree in it, I would hope I know a little about the time period.

Norman Finkelstein is part of that Holocaust Industry (or Holokult, TM by MVictorP) though what he says is sweet to you ears. He's part of the Bullshit. Elie Wiesel, the poster boy of Holocaust Industry is another one.

The shameful thing is the Holocaust was used as a tool by the Zionists - you just don't want to believe it.
By Tonic
#1575962
Fighting a war to defend oneself from aggression, I don't think there is much wrong with that. It is when the defender passes over to become the aggressor when that war becomes unjust.

Conducting population swops or ethnic cleansing just compounds the error of aggressive war.


Who was aggressor in 1948, taliz?

But even then, you dispute the Stern gang made the offer?


Read Joseph Heller study about the Stern Gang. I never heard the phrase "master race". Their approach was not different from USSR policy (until 1941). Lehi (dubbed Stern Gang by the Brits) leader, Nathan Yellin Mor, was pro-Soviet and Communist. He was inspired by the Soviets. Nathan Yellin Mor own life was saved because of this Russian Nazi pact. When the war broke out, Sep 1939, he fled Warsaw, out of advancing German forces to Russian occupied-Poland (and NKVD hands). In a sense his "offer" to the devil was more of the same Ribbentrop–Molotov pact. He may be operated under Soviet NKVD instruction, before they let him to go to Palestine. It still doesn't clear

Britain tried to fight Germany until the last Russian (not to say Jewish) blood drop. Their clueless maneuver was rational if desperate. I would do the same.

On the other hand, Palestinian Arabs offered their help to Hitler on the same ground you accuse the Jews. I have no idea why your history reading miss it.
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By Tailz
#1576105
Tonic wrote:
Who was aggressor in 1948, taliz?

Oh the Arabs most certainly were, and the Zionists were right to defend themselves. But they also switched from defending to attacking.

Read Joseph Heller study about the Stern Gang. I never heard the phrase "master race". Their approach was not different from USSR policy (until 1941). Lehi (dubbed Stern Gang by the Brits) leader, Nathan Yellin Mor, was pro-Soviet and Communist. He was inspired by the Soviets. Nathan Yellin Mor own life was saved because of this Russian Nazi pact. When the war broke out, Sep 1939, he fled Warsaw, out of advancing German forces to Russian occupied-Poland (and NKVD hands). In a sense his "offer" to the devil was more of the same Ribbentrop–Molotov pact. He may be operated under Soviet instruction. It still doesn't clear what was his NKVD enquiry about, before they let him to go to Palestine.

Yes you got me with the comment of "master race" i was being too simplistic and derogatory in my writing to describe the whole conversation between Naftali Lubenchik (Lehi) and Werner Otto von Hentig (Nazi) with just a short quip of words.

Britain tried to fight Germany until the last Russian (not to say Jewish) blood drop. Their clueless maneuver was rational if desperate. I would do the same.

Yes I have heard that cry before, it became fashionable during the Cold War for Russians to blame the British for the excessive Russian deaths - when really they died because Soviet military leadership was poor because it had been purged by Stalin.

On the other hand, Palestinian Arabs offered their help to Hitler on the same ground you accuse the Jews. I have no idea why your history reading miss it.

Actually it was the Mufti who made the offer, but I don't know how the offer was received, or how much ground support the offer had aside from the Mufti - anyway - Had it been taken up I would have expected Rommels Africa Korps to have included a formation of Muslim soldiers offered by the Mufti, but I don't remember any such formations being on the books of Rommel's order of battle. Even then the Arabs in North Africa tried to stay out of the fighting of ether side, in Rommel's notes for the time (the book: Rommel Papers, The) - Rommel makes comments about how the British are trying to seed descent among the North African Arab tribes to attack the Axis forces, which the Arabs were generally ignoring (the same comments are mirrored in the book Panzer Commander by Hans von Luck, at that time in North Africa with the 3rd Panzer Reconnaissance battalion of the 21st Panzer Division).

The one thing that did piss the Arabs off was the poor treatment at the hands of the Italians, carrying out a number of raids against Italian positions and supply lines. So had the Mufi had been successful, I would have suspected a Muslim formation to have joined the Axis forces in North Africa or to have functioned as partisans against the British supply lines - just as the Stern gang had offered.

So no I'm not ignorant of the Mufti's offer, but just to help you out with your attempt to vilify Muslims with duplicity with the Nazis - there were Muslims who did fight for the Nazi's during the second world war in units such as 13th Waffen-Gebirgs Division der SS Handschar (kroatische Nr 1) which was raised from Bosnian muslims in 1943. But the treatment the Muslims received from their SS overlords caused the division to mutiny, with the German cadre staff being murdered. Himmler in his rage used all available force to crush the rebellion and the ring leaders were executed - however the unit was not disbanded as it was sent to Yugoslavia to confront partisans, where it committed many atrocities. Eventually the unit was disbanded and the leftovers formed into a kampfgruppe which fought in the retreat through Hungary and Austria before surrendering to the Soviets.
By Tonic
#1576115
But they also switched from defending to attacking.
:lol:

Yes I have heard that cry before, it became fashionable during the Cold War for Russians to blame the British for the excessive Russian deaths - when really they died because Soviet military leadership was poor because it had been purged by Stalin.


Oh really? What about the delay in opening the Western front to ease the Soviet burden?

Actually it was the Mufti who made the offer, but I don't know how the offer was received


You're not serious are you?
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By Tailz
#1576131
Tonic wrote:
:lol:

A giggling smily face does not make a rebuttal.

Oh really? What about the delay in opening the Western front to ease the Soviet burden?

Stalin was pushing for the opening of the second front as soon as possible, and the soonest the Western Allies could do it was in thorough Italy. The Allies knew from the Dieppe raid that without superior forces and the right beach conditions, their landings would have been a shambles. But if you want to believe that the landings were delayed in order to shed more Soviet blood, go right ahead.

You're not serious are you?

Sure I am, how culd they have taken an offer from a community leader in an area under the occupation of a military force that even the Africa Korps was having a hard time cracking. How would they raise the troop, train them, equip them, etc.

Sure Hitler and his cronies would be rubbing their hands together with glee at the show of support, but they still had to form in into something tangible, and that would have been difficult with Palestine being so far away, under British control, and already messed up.
By Tonic
#1576432
Breaking news:

Page last updated at 10:18 GMT, Wednesday, 2 July 2008 11:18 UK


Bulldozer rampage hits Jerusalem
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The moment the driver of the bulldozer was shot dead

A man has driven a bulldozer into a bus and several cars in Jerusalem, killing two people and injuring dozens more, before being shot dead by police.

At least seven people are said to be in critical condition after the incident on Jaffa Road, in the city centre.

The BBC's Tim Franks, who witnessed the incident, said a police officer shot the driver dead after a struggle in the vehicle's cab.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7485022.stm

Last edited by Tonic on 03 Jul 2008 23:17, edited 1 time in total.
By Maas
#1576819
cause the Palestinians got much more rights than they deserve.

yeah... they should be treated like 2nd class citizens.
Oh wait... they already are.
By Tonic
#1576972
It is impossible to live with a large fifth column in a country.


THE SUDETENIZATION OF PALESTINE
By Dr. Steven Plaut

http://www.freeman.org/m_online/jul98/plaut.htm

Neither the complaints of the Sudeten Germans nor those of the Palestinian Arabs were entirely without foundation. In both cases, the minority group was underrepresented in the civil service and armed forces, partly because of security fears. Both groups experienced some security-related restrictions, particularly during periods of exterior threats and tensions.

Both countries attempted to resolve their problems with the same strategy: winning over the hostile minority through economic integration, tolerance, freedom, and liberal social reform.


The Czech historian Luza has observed: "The Sudeten German problem was not a cause of the context but its pretext. The true reason, according to the Germans themselves, was a refusal of the Czechoslovakian state to become a German vassal (emphasis in original)." Hitler confirmed this on January 23, 1942, when he said, "To put it briefly, the Czechoslovakians are a foreign body in the midst of the German community. There is no room both for them and for us. One of us must give way."

Against the mood of appeasement, a few Western protests were voiced, but generally ignored. William Srang, head of the Central European Department of the British Foreign Office, warned: "Even if there were not a single German in Czechoslovakia, the root problem of German-Czechoslovakian relations would remain, viz., a Slav state thrust into the heart of Germany ... The German government ... (is) using the Sudeten German question as an instrument of policy to strengthen (its) political and military position."

After coming to power, Hitler turned the issue of Sudeten national rights into the main instrument for military aggression. His interest in "self-determination" was based entirely on his determination to destroy and annex Czechoslovakia. The Nazi propaganda machine shifted into high gear, alleging widespread violations of the human rights of Sudeten Germans by the Czechoslovakian authorities. Nazi funds flowed into the coffers of the SdP. Germany ominously warned of the existence of imaginary Soviet airfields in Czechoslovakia, much as the Arabs were to "discover" imaginary American airfields in Israel in 1967. Germany labeled Czechoslovakia "a puppet of Soviet imperialism", just as the Arabs were to label Israel a puppet and instrument of American imperialism. But the most important part of the Nazi propaganda assault on Czechoslovakia was the denunciation of the supposed torture and physical abuse of Sudeten Germans at the hands of Czechoslovakia. This from the nation that was already building concentration camps.



Sudetenland.

The Hamas newspaper in May 18, 2006 chronicled with pride the ways in which different foreign leaders singled out the Palestinians as examples of ideal revolutionaries. The first leader cited by the Hamas weekly, Al-Rissala, for praising the Palestinians was Adolf Hitler:

"Adolf Hitler, while exciting the Germans of the Sudetenland - the Sudetenland is a German province that the Allies had annexed to Czechoslovakia after the First World War - told them in his broadcasts: Look at what the Palestinian revolutionaries are doing to Great Britain!!"
[Al-Rissala (Hamas Weekly), May 18, 2006]

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