Barak orders dstruction of Jerusa terrorists' families homes - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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User avatar
By Sephardi
#1716739
Double posted sorry. Delete.
By sploop!
#1716741
Please!

Maybe you should visit Gaza, and see just how bad Israel has made life for the people living there?

It's very difficult to feel any sympathy for a state that engages in evil as policy. Really. Go to Gaza, then you can talk about racism with a bit of authority.
User avatar
By Sephardi
#1716748
Please!

Maybe you should visit Gaza, and see just how bad Israel has made life for the people living there?

It's very difficult to feel any sympathy for a state that engages in evil as policy. Really. Go to Gaza, then you can talk about racism with a bit of authority.


Please!

Maybe you should visit Saudi Arabia, and see how bad the police and the government have made life for the people living there.

It's very difficult to feel any sympathy for a state that engages in evil as policy. Really. Go to Saudi Arabia, then you can talk about racism with a bit of authority.

Please!

Maybe you should visit Iraq, and see how bad the sunnis and shias are fighting.

It's very difficult to feel any sympathy for a whole people that engage in evil as policy. Really. Go to Iraq, then you can talk about racism with a bit of authority.

Please!

Maybe you should visit Lebanon, and see how bad the Muslims are making life for the Christians.

It's very difficult to feel any sympathy for a state that engages in evil as policy. Really. Go to Lebanon, then you can talk about racism with a bit of authority.

Please!

Maybe you should visit Iran, and see how bad the Social Conservative Party, the ruling party, is making life for people.

It's very difficult to feel any sympathy for a state that engages in evil as policy. Really. Go to Tehran, then you can talk about racism with a bit of authority.

Please!

Maybe you should visit Pakistan, and see how the bad the terrorists and the civil wars are, and see how bad they attack India and Hindus all the time.

It's very difficult to feel any sympathy for a state that engages in evil as policy. Really. Go to Islamabad (that name made me laugh), then you can talk about racism with a bit of authority.

Please!

Maybe you should visit GAZA, and see what happened to these people when they decided to mess with Israel, instead of India, or the US, and see how they are living their lives now.
By sploop!
#1716758
Please!

Maybe you should visit GAZA, and see what happened to these people when they decided to mess with Israel, instead of India, or the US, and see how they are living their lives now.


Collective Punishment.
User avatar
By Andres
#1716768
Nets wrote:These escapades in Hevron have been the last straw for me; fuck the settlements, fuck the settlers. This is not how Jews act.
Does this mean that one can make generalizations as to how Jews do act? Qatz is going to be interested, although it's not like he ever needed your permission to do this before. It's also surprising that it took you all this time to reach the conclusion that the settlers do not 'act like Jews', since the settlers have been causing problems for decades.

One more question, Nets, when Jews do act like Jews, do they communicate through the use of strawman arguments and other non sequiturs, or are some Jews on this forum not acting like Jews?
By hadzo
#1716769
I'm not sure. Maybe, maybe not... doesn't hurt to try.


I did not intend to quote anyone but had to quote that. Are you out of your fucking mind? You speak as if you’re about to try an ice cream or some cheap wine. That alone should clearly show your point of view (hatred, racism what ever it is) in this conflict.


There are many conflicts in this world that make me literally sick to my stomach. This happens to be one of them. At no point are any of two sides seriously compromising.

It is absolutely unjust for the houses to be demolished. Perhaps, a father or brother may have been associated or had known of planned attacks an appropriate punishment (through a trial) is due but surely not the entire family can be punished for and currently not in such fashion. I’ve read every single post and none, absolutely zero credible points have been mention to support this. None unless if you choose to accept such comments as posted by “War Angel”.

Settlers have been a very strong point on this debate. I see no problems with settlers expanding. However I do see the problem with in quality of life between that of a settler and average Palestinian. No one can argue that the living standard has a huge margin.

My final, I am strongly against this move towards demolishing houses of the families of so-called terrorists and or oppressed minority (in this case).
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#1716773
Nets wrote:This is not how Jews act.

A Jewish guy in one of my classes asked me, after a particularly lively discussion on the history of European Jewries and their role in banking for monarchs, "Do you think that Jewish people are genetically predisposed to parasitism?"

He actually asked me this. As if there was anything "genetic" about calling yourself a Jew. As if aliens landed on earth and inseminated a few "chosen" mortals with supersperm.

See, a lot of Jews think in terms of "race" in the way that it is politically-incorrect to talk about. My classmate probably suspects he's got a magical gene.

This is not very different than raising kids to continue believing in Santa Claus as adults.
User avatar
By Oxymoron
#1716779
Using made up characters doesnt hide your antisemitism.

A classmate of mine who is a French Canadian said that all Canadian Frenchies have a Jewhating Gene I told him that cant be, most likely its something in the water
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#1716793
A classmate of mine who is a French Canadian said that all Canadian Frenchies have a Jewhating Gene

Oxymoron, we don't learn about a "Quebec gene" in our schools or among other Quebecois. It isn't part of Quebec mythology to have a "special mission" handed to our genetic-brethren by God (the king of genes) himself.
Last edited by QatzelOk on 06 Dec 2008 23:44, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Nets
#1716800
Andres wrote:Does this mean that one can make generalizations as to how Jews do act?


Fair point. This is not how Jews should act. I let emotion get the best of me.

Qatz is going to be interested, although it's not like he ever needed your permission to do this before.


I honestly couldn't care less about what Qatz "thinks", if one could call it thinking and not knee-jerk venom spewing.

It's also surprising that it took you all this time to reach the conclusion that the settlers do not 'act like Jews', since the settlers have been causing problems for decades.


Not like this, not by a longshot, this is the worst its ever been. Compare the evacuation of the Sinai to the evacuation of Gaza to the eviction from this house in Hevron. It's been steadily getting worse Andres. Before 2005, the settlers would bitch and moan but for the most part obeyed the state and identified with it. Not so any more. Hell, in the 1970s they actually got along fairly well with the Palestinians. I spent 7 weeks on a settlement in the West Bank in 2000, and visited local Arab villages to buy stuff with my uncle. It was nothing like this. (Unsurprisingly, my second trip in 2003 featured far less of the West Bank).

I think part of the reason the settlers have been acting out so viciously over the last year or so (on a whole other level than anything they've ever done before) is they sense that history is going against them. Deep down they know Israel is going to leave Judea and Samaria, and it breaks there hearts.

Andres wrote:One more question, Nets, when Jews do act like Jews, do they communicate through the use of strawman arguments and other non sequiturs, or are some Jews on this forum not acting like Jews?


I don't understand your question, Andres. If you are asking whether or not I am embarrassed by the arguments of some of the "Zionists" on the forum who are inexplicably working towards a binational state, then yes.

Sploop! wrote:Please!

Maybe you should visit Gaza, and see just how bad Israel has made life for the people living there?

It's very difficult to feel any sympathy for a state that engages in evil as policy. Really. Go to Gaza, then you can talk about racism with a bit of authority.


Please! When was the last time you visited Gaza, or the West Bank, or Israel for that matter. Just as I thought.

I've been pretty harsh on Israel in this thread, but frankly the Gaza leadership is responsible for many of their problems.

In 2005, during the Gaza withdrawal, Ariel Sharon had carefully built an Israeli consensus around withdrawal from Gaza and the vast majority of the West Bank. (Yes, vast majority, not all, I don't want to get bogged down here over that, the concept in itself was amazing for the time). Had Gaza not turned into a clusterfuck of rocket attacks, border attacks and weapons smuggling, the Israeli public would be more willing to make concessions in the WB.

Israelis saw what happened upon withdrawal from Gaza, imagined the same nightmare scenario in the WB and decided they didn't want rockets falling on Tel Aviv and Ben-Gurion airport as well.
By Ontiphishtim
#1716805
Maybe you should visit Gaza, and see just how bad Israel has made life for the people living there?

Israel supports financially an enemy entity. It supplies medicines, food, fuel, water and electricity to an enemy entity. The financing for this supply is coming from a piece of the money the Israeli government is taxing. In other words, the Israeli citizens are funding them, keeping them alive and supply them advanced medical treatment in Israel when its drastically needed and in rare, relatively good security conditions. You cannot expect Israel for more.

The Palestinians in the West Bank are completely different story. Vast majority of Palestinians in the West Bank live in areas A and B - they naturally were and that is the reason for this kind of division of the administration terrritories in the West Bank - which are under the administration of the PNA. The PNA is an adminastrative body founded in co-oporation between Israel and the PLO at the 90s following the Oslo Accords. The PNA needs to carry the people who live under their adminstartion, and Israel supplies it food, medicines, electricity and money, a lot of it. The problems are thus: First of all, there is a large number of Palestinians in the West Bank, 2.5-3.8 millions, and it is very hard to finance them completely without them paying back [they do not pay taxes]. Second of all, the PNA is a very curropted bodies. There are evidences which indicates that Arafat toop the billions of dollars he received from Israel and other countries to his own pocket instead of using them in order to make the conditions of his own people better, which is the porpuse of giving this money in the first place.

You cannot blame Israel for the situation the Palestinian population of Gaza Strip is found in, as the very fact that they do not live under reasonable life conditions is mainly derived from: (a)1. This population is living in an enemy entity to the State of Israel 2. Thus, the amount of money and supplies expected from one entity to its enemy entity is limited for obvious reasons. (b). Since this population does not live under Israeli occupation or civic Israeli rule, Israel supplying them is truly a luxury and act of good will. (c) The fact that there is a 'siege' upon the strip is because of obvious security reasons, as part of normative war acts in 'cold' or 'hot' wartime.

Oxymoron, we don't learn about a "Quebec gene" in our schools or among other Quebecois.

Do you actually claim Israeli children are taught in school about "the Jewish gene"? Well, if you do, you are wrong.
User avatar
By Andres
#1716842
Nets wrote:Not like this, not by a longshot, this is the worst its ever been. Compare the evacuation of the Sinai to the evacuation of Gaza to the eviction from this house in Hevron ...
...
This makes it sound as if your opposition to the settlers has almost everything to do with their obeisance or lack thereof to Israeli legal authorities, and nothing to do with the hardship imposed on Palestinians due to security operations. Is this correct?

I think part of the reason the settlers have been acting out so viciously over the last year or so (on a whole other level than anything they've ever done before) is they sense that history is going against them. Deep down they know Israel is going to leave Judea and Samaria, and it breaks there hearts.
This makes much sense.

I don't understand your question, Andres. If you are asking whether or not I am embarrassed by the arguments of some of the "Zionists" on the forum who are inexplicably working towards a binational state, then yes.
No, my rhetorical question was to keep playing with the, already corrected by you, idea that Jews act in a prescribed way. Since you modified your position, you can just ignore it.
User avatar
By Sayed Zakerya
#1716898
Nattering Nabob wrote
If there is any evidence that this tactic is working to lower incidents of violence it should be used...
In times of war some laws and norms are suspended...
What war!! these are Arabic citizens of Jerualem. You consider people life & dignity a test specimen. Even in wars such a collective punishment is condemned, & those who are applying it are rated War criminals.

Oxymoron wrote
Israel has existed for 6 decades I dont see any reason that they should panic and give into the Palestinians without certain conditions being met.
Israel is losing.The Zionist leaders are trying to avoid the bi-national state which is approaching. The fanatic dream of Jewish state is slipping away. Israel is fighting since 60 years. Its enemies are increasing & developing new tactics It is exhausted. Geographically, the existing area representing the dreamed Jewish state lies around Tel Abib area. Om elfahem , Galil areas have Arabic majority. Other areas within the green borders are called mixed areas. The Israeli Arab inhabitants within the green borders are expected to be the majority within 50 years. The Zionist fast plan is to withdraw from WB , arrange land swap with PA & apply the two state solution. They are dreaming of exchanging the Israeli Arabs with the settlers in WB. The world is not going to accept this cleansing.Zionism dream is vanishing.

Ontiphishtim wrote
The financing for this supply is coming from a piece of the money the Israeli government is taxing. In other words, the Israeli citizens are funding them, keeping them alive and supply them advanced medical treatment in Israel when its drastically needed and in rare, relatively good security conditions. You cannot expect Israel for more.
Prove what you are stating. Gaza is supplied by UNRAWA. Israel is not a member there.Anything outside Unrawa, Israel is selling to PA according to Oslo accords & further disengagement agreements.
Do not twist the facts. Israeli authorities have proved their barbaric nature towards the Palestinians long time ago. You are deceiving nobody.
[anti-Apartheid fighter Archbishop Desmond Tutu wrote: "I have been very deeply distressed by my visit to the Holy Land; it reminded me so much of what happened to us black people in South Africa. I have seen the humiliation of Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young police officers prevented us from moving about.]
Israel shameful policies are tested before by the Nazis & South African white authorities.Such policies are only exposing the nature of this racist state.
By sploop!
#1716915
Nets...

When was the last time you visited Gaza, or the West Bank, or Israel for that matter.


I wouldn't visit Israel if I was paid. And as you know, it is extremely difficult to visit Palestine. But not impossible. The problem with your comment:

Just as I thought.


Is that you have no reason to think anything. You don't know anything of consequence about me, or my life. Try reading the thread for context. One of the more ignorant posters wrote, about 'the jews':

They are, like blacks in the US, or Canada.


Which is clearly ridiculous. If anything, 'the jews' in this context are more like the KKK of the US or Canada. Which is why I suggested he visit Gaza to get a real feel for what being on the receiving end of racism looks like.

The rest of your post appears to be the usual abrogation of responsibility that we are used to seeing from you.

Ontiphishtim: Israel supports financially an enemy entity. It supplies medicines, food, fuel, water and electricity to an enemy entity.


Really? From here, it looks like the complete opposite. Israel does everything in its power to prevent Palestine from gaining any sort of control over the conditions it is forced to endure by the occupying power. From here, it looks like Israel uses its position of power to punish a whole community. From here, Israel looks as evil as it is possible for a state to be.

You cannot expect Israel for more.


I can, and do.
User avatar
By Oxymoron
#1716967
Israel is losing.The Zionist leaders are trying to avoid the bi-national state which is approaching


Not at all, Saudia Arabia has welcomed Israeli leaders Syria is isolated, Lebanon is no threat, Hamas can barely feed its people because it wastes resources and relations by firing rockets and other terror tactics.

The fanatic dream of Jewish state is slipping away. Israel is fighting since 60 years. Its enemies are increasing & developing new tactics It is exhausted. Geographically, the existing area representing the dreamed Jewish state lies around Tel Abib area. Om elfahem , Galil areas have Arabic majority. Other areas within the green borders are called mixed areas. The Israeli Arab inhabitants within the green borders are expected to be the majority within 50 years. The Zionist fast plan is to withdraw from WB , arrange land swap with PA & apply the two state solution. They are dreaming of exchanging the Israeli Arabs with the settlers in WB. The world is not going to accept this cleansing.Zionism dream is vanishing.


Only in your mind my friend, Israel is a strong nation with a strong identity and will not go away because you want it to.
By Maas
#1716976
Not at all, Saudia Arabia has welcomed Israeli leaders Syria is isolated, Lebanon is no threat, Hamas can barely feed its people because it wastes resources and relations by firing rockets and other terror tactics.

Hamas never feed their people.
The UN did that. And the starving of those millions of people just like some german nazi tactic in a concentration camp. Remember them skinny people in them pics Oxy? "but the palestinians shoot rockets" and those Jews in them camps wouldn't if they could? Right.
Last edited by Maas on 06 Dec 2008 23:07, edited 1 time in total.
By Sapper
#1716978
Israel supports financially an enemy entity. It supplies medicines, food, fuel, water and electricity to an enemy entity. The financing for this supply is coming from a piece of the money the Israeli government is taxing. In other words, the Israeli citizens are funding them, keeping them alive and supply them advanced medical treatment in Israel when its drastically needed and in rare, relatively good security conditions. You cannot expect Israel for more.

Gaza itself is not an enemy entity. The government that happens to control Gaza's day-to-day activity may be an enemy entity to Israel, but not the entire territory. (Although I would add that Hamas is way more willing to deal with Israel than vice versa.)

I am not aware of the source of the funds that put electricity from Israel into the Gaza power generators. It isn't unreasonable to believe they are Israeli, though they might be Palestinian tax funds. You should check before you make such a statement.

As for keeping them alive -- that's a stretch. Conditions in Gaza have deteriorated drastically, and in the way predicted by, e.g., the World Bank in March 2006 when everyone was fiendishly devising a way to inflict massive suffering on Gazan civilians.

The U.S. and E.U. also cut off aid totaling around $1 billion—half of the PA's annual budget. The contention that this was made up by donations from other Arab countries, proclaimed by some like in the Washington Institute, is completely false. Iran, for instance, only promised $50 million (see NY Times.) The PA operated 76 percent of the schools, 62 percent of healthcare facilities, and employed 64 percent of educational personnel -- how the fuck are they supposed to afford all of that now (World Bank)?

The World Bank estimated the Palestinian economy would shrink by 27 percent in 2006 -- that's the same amount of shrinkage experienced by the U.S. during the Great Depression, only it occured over a series of years rather than just one. Two months later, the World Bank said these projections were now "too rosy" (World Bank). So, it was indeed going to be worse.

By the end of the 2006, nearly 80 percent of the Gaza Strip lived on less than one dollar a day, up 54 percent since 2005 (Reuters, UNRWA).

Add all this to the fact that Israel periodically cuts off all humanitarian supplies, and then lets in only a few truckloads day later -- Israel, and the West at large, can indeed to more. At least, they can do less -- they can stop inflicting massive economic losses, not even comparable to anything in the Western history for centuries back, for political purposes (which I would label economic terrorism, personally).

(a)1. This population is living in an enemy entity to the State of Israel 2.

This is no justification for massive economic warfare (terrorism). If it were, no one would have a problem with suicide bombings in Tel Aviv, as Tel Aviv is living under an ``enemy entity.''

The fact that there is a 'siege' upon the strip is because of obvious security reasons, as part of normative war acts in 'cold' or 'hot' wartime.

Again, if this justifies economic terrorism, than terrorism is justified against Tel Aviv cafe-goers.
By PBVBROOK
#1717002
Collective Punishment


Oh nonsense. It is getting very tiring to hear the poor put upon folks who launce rockets indiscriminately into Israel whining like little girls when they get a bit of thier own medicine.

If you support a terrorist you are a terrorist. If the people were trying to root out this evil they could, perhaps, have some room to bitch.

Really? From here, it looks like the complete opposite. Israel does everything in its power to prevent Palestine from gaining any sort of control over the conditions it is forced to endure by the occupying power. From here, it looks like Israel uses its position of power to punish a whole community. From here, Israel looks as evil as it is possible for a state to be.


Israel should occupy Gaza and run out anyone who won't play by the rules. If Israel has any fault it is that they have been too lax for too long.

It is about time that the rest of the world become just as tired of the Palistinian's shit as is the Arab world is. (not to mention Israel.) The only thing the regional powers find useful about the Palistinians is that they are good pawns in an ideological war.

No sympathy for them at all. Let them turn thier back on terror, stop the futile attacks on Israeli civilians and maybe things would get better. If they were screwing with Iran like this they would have been wiped out years ago.
By Sapper
#1717003
It is getting very tiring to hear the poor put upon folks who launce rockets indiscriminately into Israel whining like little girls when they get a bit of thier own medicine.

1.5 million Palestinians are not launching rockets at Israel. Maybe a few hundred, or a few thousand. To punish the other 1.49 million for these acts is collective punishment, and illegal. It rests upon the same logic as, "There was a murder in town; for justice to be served, we must starve the entire town for three years.''

If you support a terrorist you are a terrorist. If the people were trying to root out this evil they could, perhaps, have some room to bitch.

Hmm. Reagan supported terrorists in Nicaragua (or anywhere else) --> the American populace supported Reagan --> The American people support terrorists --> supporting terrorists is terrorism --> terrorism should be eliminated --> it is just to attack American civilians --> 9/11 was a praise-worthy act.

Sound good?

The only thing the regional powers find useful about the Palistinians is that they are good pawns in an ideological war.

Indeed.

Israel should occupy Gaza and run out anyone who won't play by the rules. If Israel has any fault it is that they have been too lax for too long.

With similar validity, any Hamas member could say, ``Palestinians should occupy all of Israel and run out anyone who opposes us. If the Palestinian people have any fault it has been because they're too nice, too gracious, too saintly.''

If they were screwing with Iran like this they would have been wiped out years ago.

They are being wiped out, albeit rather slowly (and for political, not ethnic, reasons).
User avatar
By Nattering Nabob
#1717091
If there is any evidence that this tactic is working to lower incidents of violence it should be used...
In times of war some laws and norms are suspended...


What war!! these are Arabic citizens of Jerualem. You consider people life & dignity a test specimen. Even in wars such a collective punishment is condemned, & those who are applying it are rated War criminals.




Call it a civil war, a revolutionary war...it is still a war...

And as I stated, in wars some laws and norms are suspended...
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