[SolarCross]

What are the ethics of forced purchases? Do the ends justify the means? Discuss.

[Victoribus Spolia]

Forcing people to buy a product or service (assumedly under threat of force); is never justified.


Thus, people should not be forced to buy things they don't want or need, nor should they be forced to buy things they may or may-not need.

[SolarCross]

Forcing people to buy a product or service (assumedly under threat of force); is never justified.

Thus, people should not be forced to buy things they don't want or need, nor should they be forced to buy things they may or may-not need.

Really is it never justified? Playing devil's advocate I think I could make a case for it under emergency conditions such as war, famine and plague.

[Victoribus Spolia]

Really is it never justified? Playing devil's advocate I think I could make a case for it under emergency conditions such as war, famine and plague.

Why would it be justified to force me to buy grain during, lets say, a famine? Or why would it be justified to force me to take medicine during a plague? Of buy warbonds during a conflict?

Why can't I choose for myself to do that which could cause me harm?

Now, if what I was doing was definitely harming others, then that is not a question of forcing me purchase anything, at that point you are only preventing me from doing harm to others and is a seperate matter altogether.

[SolarCross]

Why would it be justified to force me to buy grain during, lets say, a famine? Or why would it be justified to force me to take medicine during a plague? Of buy warbonds during a conflict?

Why can't I choose for myself to do that which could cause me harm?

Now, if what I was doing was definitely harming others, then that is not a question of forcing me purchase anything, at that point you are only preventing me from doing harm to others and is a seperate matter altogether.

Dammit I was hoping you wouldn't call my bluff on that.

Okay, I'll try.. the examples you mention are relatively obvious things that you might well have sufficient understanding to do without coercion. However what if the circumstances demanded a purchase which is identified as needed by experts but must be performed by non-experts? For example one consequence of Magna Carta was that kings were extremely limited in legal means to raise funds for professional fighting men and this lead to the passing of numerous Archery Laws wherein as a substitute for gold for professionals regular folks were required to obtain and train with war bows so that they may be equiped and trained for times of war. The king here is the expert on matters of war and statecraft while the regular folks while being experts in many civilian matters generally know nothing much of strategic concerns and so wouldn't possess sufficient knowledge to make an informed choice in the matter and thus it was required to force them to purchase bows rather than persuade them to buy bows and let it slide if they chose not to.

[Pants-of-dog]

I am forced to pay taxes that then go to pay the cops, judges, and lawmakers that provide the infrastructure for capitalism.

So, I am already being forced to do so.

[SolarCross]

I am forced to pay taxes that then go to pay the cops, judges, and lawmakers that provide the infrastructure for capitalism.

So, I am already being forced to do so.

Does that mean you think people shouldn't be forced to buy things they don't want or need?

[Pants-of-dog]

Does that mean you think people shouldn't be forced to buy things they don't want or need?

Do you?

[SolarCross]

Do you?

In general no but I think emergency conditions might provide some justifications for some kinds of forced purchases. It should be the exception rather than the rule in any case.

[Pants-of-dog]

Do you think it is just that I am forced to pay for capitalism?

[XogGyux]

IDK but Comcast sure tries hard to sell me their stupid landline. Who the fuck uses landlines anymore.

[SolarCross]

Do you think it is just that I am forced to pay for capitalism?

You are only forced to buy cops and courts in regards to "capitalism". I would say cops and courts probably could be excusable in that they are at least ostensibly set up to deal with emergency conditions, on the personal level theft, rape and murder are arguable emergency conditions. Likewise also for fire stations and emergency health care.

However it may be that fully volitional cops and courts are possible as described by David Freidman in his book Machinery of Freedom and in that case we should try that. It is worth a read at least.

[Pants-of-dog]

So that is a yes, you think it is just that I am forced to pay for something I do not want or need or asked for.

[SolarCross]

So that is a yes, you think it is just that I am forced to pay for something I do not want or need or asked for.

Only under emergency conditions if absolutely necessary not for every and any silly thing.

[Pants-of-dog]

Are you arguing that I am living under emergency conditions, and that is why I am forced to pay for capitalism?

[SolarCross]

Are you arguing that I am living under emergency conditions, and that is why I am forced to pay for capitalism?

No, but cops and courts exist to deal with emergency conditions when they arise. War is an emergency condition but it helps to ready for war even while there is peace. The kings of old did not wait until there was a war to decree their Archery Laws because if they left it until then it would be too late to do any good.

[Rancid]

I am forced to pay taxes that then go to pay the cops, judges, and lawmakers that provide the infrastructure for capitalism.

So, I am already being forced to do so.

Now I'm curious.

Would you pay for cops or judges under a socialist system? What if their behaviors under a socialist system largely the same as in a capitalist system? Stuff like breaingk up dirty capitalist protests with violence?

[Pants-of-dog]

Cops, politicians, and courts only deal with emergencies every now and then. A lot of time is spent on things like civil suits, or making laws supporting capitalism, and killing people trying to sell cigarettes.

Are all these other tasks for which I am forced to pay justified because some cops deal with emergencies every now and then?

Also, hospitals treating trauma patients are involved in emergency services. Does this justify a public health care system?

———————————

Now I'm curious.

Would you pay for cops or judges under a socialist system? What if their behaviors under a socialist system largely the same as in a capitalist system? Stuff like breaingk up dirty capitalist protests with violence?

In that case, it is something I want, need, and have asked for.

[SolarCross]

Cops, politicians, and courts only deal with emergencies every now and then. A lot of time is spent on things like civil suits, or making laws supporting capitalism, and killing people trying to sell cigarettes.

Are all these other tasks for which I am forced to pay justified because some cops deal with emergencies every now and then?

It is certainly arguable that in a given polity there are too many cops or they perform poorly or whatever but I am dealing with principles here mainly. If you want to complain about your particular local cops shaking you down with speeding fines while letting axe murderers carry on without care then this isn't really the discussion for you.

Also, hospitals treating trauma patients are involved in emergency services. Does this justify a public health care system?

I already indicated that emergency health care could be justified this way.

[Pants-of-dog]

It is certainly arguable that in a given polity there are too many cops or they perform poorly or whatever but I am dealing with principles here mainly. If you want to complain about your particular local cops shaking you down with speeding fines while letting axe murderers carry on without care then this isn't really the discussion for you.

I already indicated that emergency health care could be justified this way.

You did not understand my point.

Does the fact that some services are emergencies justify people paying for the whole system?