[Pants-of-dog]

You have another smuggled in assumption: that I am supposed to care that someone else is dead.

You can put on an exploded cigar face and say of course you must!, but, historically, people did not feel the need to ever care this way about outsiders, and indeed, delighted in the deaths of their enemies, and praised those who brought their enemies to their knees.

This works as an intrasocietal principle, but even then, to a degree: who is to say that it is not sweet & proper for a Samurai to cut an eta in two for an arbitrary reason? Who is to say that it is not the right of an owner to take full control of the slave he bought at the market? His societal laws at that time may fully say he has a right to take her as he pleases.

What is in nature to say any of these things are inherently wrong?

As far as I can tell, it does not matter at all if something is inherently wrong or not. Your god has a proper way of raping slaves. Is that inherently right because it is in your bible?

Morality does not need to deal in things that are inherently good or bad. I understand that we all want things to be inherently good or bad. I want to think that racism and rape has always been wrong, but even a cursory understanding of history shows that racism and rape were actually considered good things for most of human history.

[Verv]

As far as I can tell, it does not matter at all if something is inherently wrong or not. Your god has a proper way of raping slaves. Is that inherently right because it is in your bible?

It was actually protocols for integrating women into Hebrew society, protocols designed to stop rape and murder. Only an uncharitable reading would bring us to that conclusion.

Come on, POD: Hebrews aren't white, it's OK for you to interpret their culture in a positive way.

Morality does not need to deal in things that are inherently good or bad. I understand that we all want things to be inherently good or bad. I want to think that racism and rape has always been wrong, but even a cursory understanding of history shows that racism and rape were actually considered good things for most of human history.

So you agree that there is no objective morality, only conventions..?

But I remember you saying you believe in God. So, IDK. Does God have any bearing on your views of right/wrong?

[ingliz]

the universal thou shalt not kill

You shall faithfully observe my laws; I the LORD make you holy. If any man insults his father or his mother, he shall be put to death··· If a man commits adultery with a married woman, committing adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and adulteress shall be put to death··· If a man lies with a male as one lies with a woman, the two of them have done an abhorrent thing; they shall be put to death (Leviticus 20:8-10, 13).

Once, when the Israelites were in the wilderness, they came upon a man gathering wood on the Sabbath day··· Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; the whole community shall pelt him with stones outside the camp.” So the whole community took him outside the camp and stoned him to death—as the LORD had commanded Moses (Numbers 15:32, 35-36).

When the LORD your God brings you to the land that you are about to invade and occupy, and He dislodges many nations before you··· you must doom them to destruction: grant them no terms and give them no quarter··· You shall destroy all the peoples that the LORD your God delivers to you, showing them no pity (Deuteronomy 7:1-2, 16).

If your brother, your own mother’s son, or your son or daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your closest friends entices you in secret, saying, “Come let us worship other gods”··· do not assent or give heed to him. Show him no pity or compassion, and do not shield him, but take his life··· Stone him to death, for he sought to make you stray from the LORD your God.” (Deuteronomy 13:7, 9-11).

The Lord spoke to Moses saying, “Avenge the Israelite people on the Midianites··· They took the field Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and slew every male··· The Israelites took the women and children of the Midianites captive, and seized as booty all their beasts, all their herds, and all their wealth. And they destroyed by fire all the towns in which they were settled, and their encampments··· Moses said to them,” You have spared every female! ··· Now, therefore, slay every male among the children, and slay every woman who has known a man carnally···” (Numbers 31:1-2, 7, 9-11, 15, 17).

etc, etc, etc.....

[Crantag]

It is always gratifying to watch atheists outbible bible thumpers.

And I'm going to keep spelling bible with a lower case 'b', @MrWonderful, because that's how I always have, and it's not ungrammatical at all.

Go pray in your closet.

And praying and reading the bible is fine. Just don't call me evil because I don't do it often.

[Pants-of-dog]

It was actually protocols for integrating women into Hebrew society, protocols designed to stop rape and murder. Only an uncharitable reading would bring us to that conclusion.

Come on, POD: Hebrews aren't white, it's OK for you to interpret their culture in a positive way.

If you want to imply that I am racist against white people, feel free.

Getting back to my point, you are agreeing that this ritualised rape of slaves is not inherently right. It is, instead, a moral good only when seen through the social and material context of Bronze Aage Middle East nomads. This corroborates my point about morality being a social construct rather than an objective thing designed by god.

In other words, yiu are agreeing that things are not inherently right or wrong.

So you agree that there is no objective morality, only conventions..?

But I remember you saying you believe in God. So, IDK. Does God have any bearing on your views of right/wrong?

This idea that god has to be a perfectly good being is just something that Aquinas thought would be cool after reading Plato.

While god exists, there is no evidence that this being cares for us in any way that we would identify as caring. And from a purely logical perspective, there is no reason to think god would care about us.

[MrWonderful]

@Verv

I don't NOT kill someone because of fear of retribution, but because it's wrong, and I don't need a Bible nor faith to tell me this.

You have abundant faith that YOU are moral and decent and smarter than those you condemn for belief in Nature's God, as our Founding Fathers did. You have phenomenal faith that the laws created by Nature's God have operated and will continue to operate consistently and reliably.

Claiming there is God because you say so, means nothing. It actually diminishes your argument by calling upon a potentially non-existent spiritual being as your claim for evidence.

The insistence of all you atheists is that nothing made everything and you fabricate nonsense in your failed attempts to make everything out of nothing. It is anti-intellectual and unscientific but you persist with arrogance and pride, making your inane claims ever more absurd and desperate.

Talking about the Qanon people as an example of free will, is tantamount to donning a tin-foil hat, and howling at the moon.

Failed atheism with quantum vacuums making everything, and the "Multiverse", and your pathetic overall mental and physical health is tantamount to donning the "tin-foil" hat, and howling at the moon. (It's aluminium foil, genius.)

The atheist meme of famous men claimed to be atheists is another lie. The only atheist on the meme is Ernest Hemingway, who put his shotgun in his mouth and pulled both triggers. An appropriate legacy of atheist misery, torment, mental illness, desperation, hopelessness. His daughter Margot followed in his suicidal steps.

Lies and evil are the two dominant métiers of atheists. It's evil to take your own life. Unpardonable sin.

===================

Put simply, scientists will tell you that “science works.” If science works, then the universe works. If the universe works then it means that it was made; because what is not made cannot possibly “work.”
These work because they were made:

Bicycles
Cars
Airplanes
Radios
Televisions
Refrigerators
Washing machines
Computers

These do not work because they were not made:

Trash
Mud puddles
Vacuums (nothing)


– Illogical Atheism, by Bo Jinn, Kindle Section 1276

[ingliz]

It's evil to take your own life.

Why?

[late]

The insistence of all you atheists is that nothing made everything and you fabricate nonsense in your failed attempts to make everything out of nothing. It is anti-intellectual and unscientific but you persist with arrogance and pride, making your inane claims ever more absurd and desperate.

Nobody says that.

We can see history with telescopes. That takes us all the way back to the microwave radiation left over from the Big Bang (they're trying to change that to Great Expansion, which IMUO, is a bit silly. Biggest bang there ever was, and they want to conjure up the biggest fart there ever was)

Anyway... we don't know past the Big Bang, but science doesn't allow the use of fantasy. So no bearded guys in the sky. Odds are, it's one Great Fart after another.

Your ignorance is remarkable. So I remarked on it.

I honestly don't care what you think. Everybody has their own take on things, and I have largely come to accept that most people are idiots. Even me, I have to work to escape drooling idiocy.

But it is annoying to watch you trash science, philosophy, and sanity, for that matter.

Have a great day, you need it.

[MrWonderful]

Stop lying. The Multiverse is pure fantasy. Atheists embrace and cite it.
Something from nothing is pure fantasy. Atheists swear by it.
If not, please explain the origin of the universe from nothing, otherwise shut up your arrogant lying.

----------------------------------------

Evil begets more evil.


Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members. Furthermore, subjects with no religious affiliation perceived fewer reasons for living, particularly fewer moral objections to suicide. In terms of clinical characteristics, religiously unaffiliated subjects had more lifetime impulsivity, aggression, and past substance use disorder. - Religious Affiliation and Suicide Attempt, American Journal of Psychiatry, December, 2004

[Godstud]

You have abundant faith that YOU are moral and decent and smarter than those you condemn for belief in Nature's God, as our Founding Fathers did. You have phenomenal faith that the laws created by Nature's God have operated and will continue to operate consistently and reliably.

I am moral and decent according to most cultures and societies in the world. I am not nearly as hateful as you are, at least. It's not faith, but knowledge.

The insistence of all you atheists is that nothing made everything and you fabricate nonsense in your failed attempts to make everything out of nothing. It is anti-intellectual and unscientific but you persist with arrogance and pride, making your inane claims ever more absurd and desperate.

No one said that nothing made everything. Science deals with reality. If you want "What ifs" and "what purpose", you turn to philosophy and religion.

The arrogance is thinking that you know all the answers. All the answers to you = god. That is about as unscientific as you can get.

Failed atheism with quantum vacuums making everything, and the "Multiverse", and your pathetic overall mental and physical health is tantamount to donning the "tin-foil" hat, and howling at the moon. (It's aluminium foil, genius.)

Multiverse = THEORY. Look up what scientific theory actually means before making stupid assumptions from a position of ignorance.

The atheist meme of famous men claimed to be atheists is another lie. The only atheist on the meme is Ernest Hemingway, who put his shotgun in his mouth and pulled both triggers. An appropriate legacy of atheist misery, torment, mental illness, desperation, hopelessness. His daughter Margot followed in his suicidal steps.

I am sure I can find religious cunts who killed themselves, too. Oh wait... they call that martyrdom in your religion, to excuse stupidity that gets you killed.

Lies and evil are the two dominant métiers of atheists. It's evil to take your own life. Unpardonable sin.

Religious people, such as you, are the evil ones. You judge(not what god wants you to do) and say you know what is best. Live your life your way and STFU.

You aren't even a real Christian if this is how you are speaking. According to your religion, your god makes the judgements, not you. Who are you to say that something is unpardonable?

Science is about figuring out how things work. It isn't about trying to figure out who made it all. You, and other religious people who take things literally, have a problem with separating the two.

[Verv]

If you want to imply that I am racist against white people, feel free.

Getting back to my point, you are agreeing that this ritualised rape of slaves is not inherently right. It is, instead, a moral good only when seen through the social and material context of Bronze Aage Middle East nomads. This corroborates my point about morality being a social construct rather than an objective thing designed by god.

In other words, yiu are agreeing that things are not inherently right or wrong.

I disagree with your characterization of what is happening.

This idea that god has to be a perfectly good being is just something that Aquinas thought would be cool after reading Plato.

While god exists, there is no evidence that this being cares for us in any way that we would identify as caring. And from a purely logical perspective, there is no reason to think god would care about us.

It's interesting to finally have some insight into what you believe about the universe.

[Verv]

You shall faithfully observe my laws; I the LORD make you holy. If any man insults his father or his mother, he shall be put to death··· If a man commits adultery with a married woman, committing adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and adulteress shall be put to death··· If a man lies with a male as one lies with a woman, the two of them have done an abhorrent thing; they shall be put to death (Leviticus 20:8-10, 13).

Once, when the Israelites were in the wilderness, they came upon a man gathering wood on the Sabbath day··· Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; the whole community shall pelt him with stones outside the camp.” So the whole community took him outside the camp and stoned him to death—as the LORD had commanded Moses (Numbers 15:32, 35-36).

When the LORD your God brings you to the land that you are about to invade and occupy, and He dislodges many nations before you··· you must doom them to destruction: grant them no terms and give them no quarter··· You shall destroy all the peoples that the LORD your God delivers to you, showing them no pity (Deuteronomy 7:1-2, 16).

If your brother, your own mother’s son, or your son or daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your closest friends entices you in secret, saying, “Come let us worship other gods”··· do not assent or give heed to him. Show him no pity or compassion, and do not shield him, but take his life··· Stone him to death, for he sought to make you stray from the LORD your God.” (Deuteronomy 13:7, 9-11).

The Lord spoke to Moses saying, “Avenge the Israelite people on the Midianites··· They took the field Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and slew every male··· The Israelites took the women and children of the Midianites captive, and seized as booty all their beasts, all their herds, and all their wealth. And they destroyed by fire all the towns in which they were settled, and their encampments··· Moses said to them,” You have spared every female! ··· Now, therefore, slay every male among the children, and slay every woman who has known a man carnally···” (Numbers 31:1-2, 7, 9-11, 15, 17).

etc, etc, etc.....

I think you understand complexity, and that 'thou shalt not kill' pertains to murder, not to things like self-defense or the execution of justice.

But yes, I see your point: we can make juxtapositions like this & suspend our rationality for a laugh.

[Pants-of-dog]

I disagree with your characterization of what is happening.

Then please explain your position.

Do you think god has created a perfect and timeless and objective morality?

[Unthinking Majority]

Religions are ready-made moral systems that, for true believers, are created for people who do not want to think or don't have the capacity to.

I'm more of an Enlightenment kind of guy: Reason will set you free.

I am, therefore I think.

[Verv]

Then please explain your position.

Do you think god has created a perfect and timeless and objective morality?

(1) The "procedures for rape" you describe is actually

The passage cited in the question expands on that, and formalizes the procedure for taking such women as wives, including such merciful provisions as giving them a month-long opportunity to mourn the loss of their previous families; taking them as wives (rather than just, for example, as concubines); and protecting them in the event that they should prove displeasing to their husbands by forbidding the husbands from selling them for money, or keeping them as slaves, but requiring their release to go wherever they wished.

ebible

(2) No, goodness is a divine energy of God, and it exists independent of our moral thoughts on it.

Goodness is co-eternal and part of God.

St. Gregory Palamas describes that -- it's in this thread on a previous page.

[Verv]

Religions are ready-made moral systems that, for true believers, are created for people who do not want to think or don't have the capacity to.

I'm more of an Enlightenment kind of guy: Reason will set you free.

I am, therefore I think.

i. Religins are more than moral systems. You know that. I think you did not say that, though, because it's not pertinent. That is fine.

ii. It's actually quite common for Christians to even say that religion is created for people who can't think. I think I have even read explicitly Catholic thinkers write on this -- maybe Leibniz. Many protestants also hint at this -- this idea that through pure enough reason, we are able to conclude that there is God, and we are able to discover what is goodness because we are rational creatures, after all, created in the image of God.

But this is not the correct line of thought.

Experience is the most expensive school in the world, and it's incredibly easy for even reasonable people to make fundamental errors.

Everyone, regardless of how smart and reasonabel they fancy themselves to be, requires religion.

Reason is more like a razor: it measures what is consistent, and it can be used to shave things down into nothing. So, relying purely on reason, you can send yourself to hell easily. It just did not seem that way in the 17th century or even the 5th century because the average person was constantly drawing off of really yuuuuugeee cultural bank accounts. You could trust people would not fall into nihilism -- perhaps because people were too proud to acknowledge that barbarians could be right.

But now we know that barbarians could be right -- and likely are right -- about a great deal of things, so reason sends us to hell more easily.

iii. We're all idiots, bro. You are not going to think yourself out of this one.

[ingliz]

'thou shalt not kill' pertains to murder

So your God-given moral code, far from being objective, turns out to be nothing more than what is legal at any particular place and point in time?

[Verv]

So your God-given moral code, far from being objective, turns out to be nothing more than what is legal at any particular place and point in time?

Wait, are you actually serious that we have to go through some lines distinguishing murder from war and judicial punishments? Idk, man. Doesn't seem like I need to cover such ground.

You know the answers.

[ingliz]

distinguishing murder from

Yes, we should, when bashing babies' brains out (Psalm 137). We could kill two birds with one stone. Exercise our bodies and our minds.

[Verv]

Sure I get it.

St. John Cassian in the 4th/5th century wrote this about it

As it is written, we should 'early in the morning destroy all the wicked of the earth' (Ps. 101:8), distinguishing in the light of divine knowledge' our sinful thoughts and then eradicating them completely from the earth - our hearts - in accordance with the teaching of the Lord. While the children of Babylon - by which I mean our wicked thoughts - are still young, we should dash them to the ground and crush them against the rock, which is Christ (cf Ps. 137:9; 1 Cor. 16:4). If these thoughts grow stronger because we assent to them, we will not be able to overcome them without much pain and labour.

Just as such, even if you believe these Psalms were literal desires for physical violence, sure, why bother me.

Just go to a Protestant apologetics site and catch the symbolism like here

https://www.crosswalk.com/faith/bible-s ... 137-9.html

Or watch Got Questions ironman the response. Those guys love to just stick the landing and nothing else.