[Besoeker2]

Atheism also needs to be defined.

I did already.

[Truth To Power]

Evil is the absence of good. This has been known since the 4th century.

And good is the absence of evil…?

There's no good in the moons of Saturn. Are they therefore evil?

Atheism also needs to be defined.

That's a much simpler concept than evil: it's just disbelief in gods, which are nothing but the pre-scientific mind's attempt to explain what it finds otherwise inexplicable.

[BigSteve]

Far more people have died in the name of someone's chosen God than in the name of Atheism...

[Julian658]

Far more people have died in the name of someone's chosen God than in the name of Atheism...

The commie atheists killed 100 million in the 20th century. I think that is a world record. And they killed their fellow citizens because they refuse to convert to communism. And the persecution of Christians and Jews by the commie Russians is well known.

The population of the world in medieval times was extremely small. The Crusaders did not kill that many infidels. And lastly they were defending Europe from an Islamic invasion. A war is not the same as the extermination of fellow citizens for not converting to communism.

If not for the Crusaders you would be a Muslim.

[Julian658]

And good is the absence of evil…?

There's no good in the moons of Saturn. Are they therefore evil?

That's a much simpler concept than evil: it's just disbelief in gods, which are nothing but the pre-scientific mind's attempt to explain what it finds otherwise inexplicable.

Atheism is quite benign. The problem is that many atheists have attached perverse ideologies.

[Truth To Power]

The commie atheists killed 100 million in the 20th century.

But they killed for communism, not atheism.

And they killed their fellow citizens because they refuse to convert to communism.

Nope. Many of the victims were communists. Read "The Gulag Archipelago."

And the persecution of Christians and Jews by the commie Russians is well known.

Likewise the persecution of Jews by Christians, of Christians and Jews -- in fact, of all non-Muslims -- by Muslims, of pagans by Jews, etc. When you think the greatest power, intellect and wisdom in the universe is on your side, nothing is forbidden.

If not for the Crusaders you would be a Muslim.

I.e., a theist.

[BigSteve]

A war is not the same as the extermination of fellow citizens for not converting to communism.

Thanks, so much, for proving my point.

They were killed in the name of communism, not Atheism.

They are not one in the same...

[Julian658]

Thanks, so much, for proving my point.

They were killed in the name of communism, not Atheism.

They are not one in the same...

It seems YOU are making my point. Going to war and trying to defeat your enemy which is what the Crusaders did
is not the same as murdering your own citizens for refusing to comply.

The Muslims always wanted to invade Europe and defeat the Christian Infidels. In fact, this is still the dream of Islam and
they are now slowly turning Europe into a caliphate. When the Spaniards and the Italians expelled the Muslims
from Spain and Sicily it was much more than religion. It was war about power and territory.

By the way, the commies were more dedicated to atheism than the Romans to Catholicism.

Here are some quotes by Karl marx:

Communism begins where atheism begins.

The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition of religion.

I wish to avenge myself against the One who rules above.

With disdain I will throw my gauntlet full in the fact of the world and see the collapse of this pygmy giant.
Then will I wander god-like and victorious through the ruins of the world.
And giving my words an active force, I will feel equal to the Creator.
Karl Marx

Lenin had a lot to say too:

Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism.
Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.

Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.

Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism.
Vladimir Lenin

Go back to the drawing board and come back with a better argument.

[Julian658]

But they killed for communism, not atheism.

Here are some quotes by Karl marx:

Communism begins where atheism begins.

The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition of religion.

I wish to avenge myself against the One who rules above.

With disdain I will throw my gauntlet full in the fact of the world and see the collapse of this pygmy giant.
Then will I wander god-like and victorious through the ruins of the world.
And giving my words an active force, I will feel equal to the Creator.
Karl Marx

Lenin had a lot to say too:

Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism.
Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.

Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.

Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism.
Vladimir Lenin

Try again!

[BigSteve]

Go back to the drawing board and come back with a better argument.

Please, don't flatter yourself. I've read many of your posts. You're a rookie.

You tried to make the point that "commie atheists" were trying to kill in the name of Atheism. That much is pretty clear from your clumsy and poorly presented argument.

Communism and Atheism are not mutually exclusive...

[Julian658]

Please, don't flatter yourself. I've read many of your posts. You're a rookie.

You tried to make the point that "commie atheists" were trying to kill in the name of Atheism. That much is pretty clear from your clumsy and poorly presented argument.

Communism and Atheism are not mutually exclusive...

Condescension is always a good tactic in an argument, but sometimes it is futile.

I am happy that for you communism and atheism do not go together. However for the murderous commies atheism was an essential component of the doctrine. And they killed for just a disagreement and they intensely hated Christians and Jews. By, the way many atheists still do.

[Pants-of-dog]

... However for the murderous commies atheism was an essential component of the doctrine. And they killed for just a disagreement and they intensely hated Christians and Jews. ...

Can you provide a specific example?

[Julian658]

Can you provide a specific example?

I never thought I would live to see a person defend people like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, et al.

"Soviet Union: Policy toward nationalities and religions in practice". http://www.country-data.com. May 1989. Retrieved 2014-03-29. Marxism-Leninism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and, ultimately, the elimination of religious beliefs, except for Judaism, which was actively protected by the bolshevik state.

Daniel, Wallace L. (Winter 2009). "Father Aleksandr Men and the struggle to recover Russia's heritage". Demokratizatsiya: The Journal of Post-Soviet Democratization. Institute for European, Russian and Eurasian Studies (George Washington University). 17 (1). ISSN 1940-4603. Retrieved 2014-03-29. Continuing to hold to one's beliefs and one's view of the world required the courage to stand outside a system committed to destroying religious values and perspectives.


The Communist Party destroyed churches, synagogues,[5] and mosques , ridiculed, harassed, incarcerated and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with anti-religious teachings, and it introduced a belief system called "scientific atheism," with its own rituals, promises and proselytizers.

Paul Froese. Forced Secularization in Soviet Russia: Why an Atheistic Monopoly Failed. Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Vol. 43, No. 1 (Mar., 2004), pp. 35-50

The total number of Christian victims under the Soviet regime has been estimated to range between 12-20 million.

”Estimates of the total number all Christian martyrs in the former Soviet Union are about 12 million.”, James M. Nelson, “Psychology, Religion, and Spirituality”, Springer, 2009, ISBN 0387875727, p. 427
”over 20 million were martyred in Soviet prison camps”, Todd M. Johnson, “Christian Martyrdom: A global demographic assessment“, p.

Sadly, these things are not taught in colleges and universities because the image of Marxim-Leninism is sacred in SJW universities. Instead the curriculum is all about destroying the West.

[Pants-of-dog]

I never thought I will live to see a person defend people like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, et al. :?: :?:

If you are accusing me of defending these people, this is incorrect.

"Soviet Union: Policy toward nationalities and religions in practice". http://www.country-data.com. May 1989. Retrieved 2014-03-29. Marxism-Leninism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and, ultimately, the elimination of religious beliefs, except for Judaism, which was actively protected by the bolshevik state.

Daniel, Wallace L. (Winter 2009). "Father Aleksandr Men and the struggle to recover Russia's heritage". Demokratizatsiya: The Journal of Post-Soviet Democratization. Institute for European, Russian and Eurasian Studies (George Washington University). 17 (1). ISSN 1940-4603. Retrieved 2014-03-29. Continuing to hold to one's beliefs and one's view of the world required the courage to stand outside a system committed to destroying religious values and perspectives.

None of this is an actual example.

The Communist Party destroyed churches, synagogues,[5] and mosques , ridiculed, harassed, incarcerated and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with anti-religious teachings, and it introduced a belief system called "scientific atheism," with its own rituals, promises and proselytizers.

Paul Froese. Forced Secularization in Soviet Russia: Why an Atheistic Monopoly Failed. Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Vol. 43, No. 1 (Mar., 2004), pp. 35-50

These examples are not very specific.

Can you provide a specific example?

The total number of Christian victims under the Soviet regime has been estimated to range between 12-20 million.

”Estimates of the total number all Christian martyrs in the former Soviet Union are about 12 million.”, James M. Nelson, “Psychology, Religion, and Spirituality”, Springer, 2009, ISBN 0387875727, p. 427
”over 20 million were martyred in Soviet prison camps”, Todd M. Johnson, “Christian Martyrdom: A global demographic assessment“, p.

This also is not specific.

Anyway, was it only the Soviets who did this? If so, why do you assume all communists do this?

[Julian658]

If you are accusing me of defending these people, this is incorrect.

None of this is an actual example.

These examples are not very specific.

I already know your debate technique: PAR FOR THE COURSE

Can you provide a specific example?

Here you go:



The Cathedral of Christ the Saviour (Russian: Храм Христа Спасителя, Khram Khrista Spasitelya) is a Russian Orthodox cathedral in Moscow, Russia.
The current church is the second to stand on this site. The original church, built during the 19th century, took more than 40 years to build, and was the
scene of the 1882 world premiere of the 1812 Overture composed by Tchaikovsky. It was destroyed in 1931 on the order of Soviet leader Joseph Stalin.

Anyway, was it only the Soviets who did this? If so, why do you assume all communists do this?

Just because you are a good communist in love with the utopia does not mean other commies are good people.
In my experience most socialists and communists are pragmatic. The end justifies the means
is common in communism.

It only takes a few bad apples at the top to cause havoc and to spread evil. Most Muslims are nice, but it
only took 19 Muslims to destroy the twin towers in New York. You are a bit naive.

[Godstud]

Far more people have died in the name of someone's chosen God than in the name of Atheism...

You and @Julian658 are trying to conflate religion, or lack thereof, with ideology. That's patently false.

Very few religions have caused wars, and Julian658 pretending the deaths of millions had to do with Atheism, is just simple hogwash. You can both actually prove me wrong by finding a war where religion was the cause. Start in the 21st century and go back.

No, @Julian658, Atheism was not the cause of the deaths of 100 million. That was a totalitarian dictatorship running under the guise of a Communist ideology. Correlation does not equal causation.

eg. (It's amusing, but it proves an important point)

It only takes a few bad apples at the top to cause havoc and to spread evil. Most Muslims are nice, but it
only took 19 Muslims to destroy the twin towers in New York. You are a bit naive.

It took 19 terrorists to do that. That they happened to be Muslim has more to do where they're from than anything else. You like conflating things

Look at all the Christian terrorists that invaded Iraq... 2 wars.

[Julian658]

You and @Julian658 are trying to conflate religion, or lack thereof, with ideology. That's patently false.

Very few religions have caused wars, and Julian658 pretending the deaths of millions had to do with Atheism, is just simple hogwash. You can both actually prove me wrong by finding a war where religion was the cause. Start in the 21st century and go back.

No, @Julian658, Atheism was not the cause of the deaths of 100 million. That was a totalitarian dictatorship running under the guise of a Communist ideology. Correlation does not equal causation.

eg. (It's amusing, but it proves an important point)


It took 19 terrorists to do that. That they happened to be Muslim has more to do where they're from than anything else. You like conflating things

Look at all the Christian terrorists that invaded Iraq... 2 wars.

I agree with you, wars are about geopolitical issues. However, the atheists always mention the Crusades. Do they even know how aggressive the Islamic forces were?

Sure, the commie Russians killed people for many reasons, however one of the reasons included virulent anti Christian feelings due to fanatical atheism. I Don’t buy the idea that the atrocities were not influenced by the pragmatism of communist atheism.

Loved the graph!

[Godstud]

However, the atheists always mention the Crusades. Do they even know how aggressive were the Islamic forces?

I am an Atheist/Agnostic, and I do not. I know it was about power in Europe. The religious people, do like to pretend that Atheists say this, however.

The Crusades are to Religious wars as Communism is to Atheist wars. Red Herrings.

The Commies suppressed religion, but did not kill people for it. They could not kill a "belief", and they knew it. They could, however, ban public worship, mosques, synagogues, churches... That they did.

Religious believers always found themselves subject to anti-religious propaganda and legislation that restricted religious practice. They frequently suffered restrictions within Soviet society. Rarely, however, did the Soviet state officially ever subject them to arrest, imprisonment or death simply for holding beliefs. Instead, the methods of persecution represented a reaction to the perception (real or imagined) of their resistance to the state's broader campaign against religion.

The campaign was designed to disseminate atheism, and the acts of violence and terror tactics deployed, while almost always officially invoked on the basis of perceived resistance to the state, aimed in the larger scheme not simply to dampen opposition, but to further assist in the suppression of religion in order to disseminate atheism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecuti ... viet_Union

This has more to do with Communism's view of religion(as a competing form of societal control), than any form of modern Atheism, however.

[Rugoz]

Religions are ideologies. They have books with rules and ideas you're supposed to believe in otherwise you end up burning in hell.

The idea that religions do not cause conflict is so utterly prepesterous it isn't even worth debating.

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.

[Julian658]

Religions are ideologies. They have books with rules and ideas you're supposed to believe in otherwise you end up burning in hell.

The idea that religions do not cause conflict is so utterly prepesterous it isn't even worth debating.

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.

I agree 100% and by the way I am agnostic.

Btw, your paragraph also applies to political ideology which can be a pseudo-religion. For example the passion of some people for socialism and how they have assimilated Marxist literature comes across like a pseudo-religion. The blindness and rejection of facts is very reminiscent of Evangelicals. The belief in the last stage of communism sounds very much like the Christian heaven.