Atheism is Evil - Page 7 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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User avatar
By Hindsite
#15008435
Rugoz wrote:Religions are ideologies. They have books with rules and ideas you're supposed to believe in otherwise you end up burning in hell.

The idea that religions do not cause conflict is so utterly prepesterous it isn't even worth debating.

Atheism is evil; Christianity is good.
Praise the Lord.
User avatar
By Julian658
#15008436
Godstud wrote:I am an Atheist/Agnostic, and I do not. I know it was about power in Europe. The religious people, do like to pretend that Atheists say this, however. :D

The Crusades are to Religious wars as Communism is to Atheist wars. Red Herrings.

The Commies suppressed religion, but did not kill people for it. They could not kill a "belief", and they knew it. They could, however, ban public worship, mosques, synagogues, churches... That they did.

Religious believers always found themselves subject to anti-religious propaganda and legislation that restricted religious practice. They frequently suffered restrictions within Soviet society. Rarely, however, did the Soviet state officially ever subject them to arrest, imprisonment or death simply for holding beliefs. Instead, the methods of persecution represented a reaction to the perception (real or imagined) of their resistance to the state's broader campaign against religion.

The campaign was designed to disseminate atheism, and the acts of violence and terror tactics deployed, while almost always officially invoked on the basis of perceived resistance to the state, aimed in the larger scheme not simply to dampen opposition, but to further assist in the suppression of religion in order to disseminate atheism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecuti ... viet_Union

This has more to do with Communism's view of religion(as a competing form of societal control), than any form of modern Atheism, however.


I am glad you agree they were anti religion. Paradoxically, communism is a pseudo-religion.
User avatar
By Godstud
#15008456
Anti-religion isn't necessarily Atheism, however. Look at @Hindsite. He's anti-everythingbuthisownreligion. :knife:
#15008486
Julian658 wrote:Here you go:

Image

    The Cathedral of Christ the Saviour (Russian: Храм Христа Спасителя, Khram Khrista Spasitelya) is a Russian Orthodox cathedral in Moscow, Russia.
    The current church is the second to stand on this site. The original church, built during the 19th century, took more than 40 years to build, and was the
    scene of the 1882 world premiere of the 1812 Overture composed by Tchaikovsky. It was destroyed in 1931 on the order of Soviet leader Joseph Stalin.



Your original claim was that “for the murderous commies atheism was an essential component of the doctrine. And they killed for just a disagreement and they intensely hated Christians and Jews.”

Now, I completely believe that anti-Semitism was common in Soviet Russia in 1931. From my understanding of history, anti-Semitism was common throughout most of Europe in 1931. But the demolition of a church does not support any claim of anti-Semitism.

Nor does it support any claim about killing.

While it may indicate hatred of Christianity, it is possible the church was demolished for other reasons.

From the Wikipedia article on the church:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedr ... he_Saviour

    The Cathedral of Christ the Saviour (Russian: Храм Христа Спасителя, Khram Khrista Spasitelya) is a Russian Orthodox cathedral in Moscow, Russia, on the northern bank of the Moskva River, a few hundred metres southwest of the Kremlin. With an overall height of 103 metres (338 ft),[3] it is the tallest Orthodox Christian church in the world.[4]

    The current church is the second to stand on this site. The original church, built during the 19th century, took more than 40 years to build, and was the scene of the 1882 world premiere of the 1812 Overture composed by Tchaikovsky. It was destroyed in 1931 on the order of Soviet leader Joseph Stalin. The demolition was supposed to make way for a colossal Palace of the Soviets to house the country's legislature, the Supreme Soviet of the USSR. Construction started in 1937 but was halted in 1941 when Germany invaded the Soviet Union during World War II. Its steel frame was disassembled the following year, and the Palace was never built. Following the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the current church was rebuilt on the site between 1995 and 2000.

    In 2018, it was reported that the foundations of the church were sinking and a massive campaign of underpinning and reconstruction was needed.[5]

Please note the bolded text. This seems to indicate that the reasons were not about atheism, but instead were about urban planning.

Just because you are a good communist in love with the utopia does not mean other commies are good people.
In my experience most socialists and communists are pragmatic. The end justifies the means is common in communism.

It only takes a few bad apples at the top to cause havoc and to spread evil. Most Muslims are nice, but it only took 19 Muslims to destroy the twin towers in New York. You are a bit naive.


Perhaps I am naive.

In my (perhaps limited) experience, I have noticed that the most complex answer to a question is usually the one that is the closest to the truth, when you are discussing history or politics or science.

So, if the question is “Is atheism evil?”, the truest answer would be “sometiems yes and sometimes no, but most often it would be irrelevant to the evil we cause”, or something like that.

So, if you think that Marxists hate religion, I would say that it would be more correct to say that some Marxists hate religion, other Marxists embrace it, and when we analyse the supposed conflicts between the Church and Marxist groups, we see that they are usually more multifaceted than a simple conflict between atheism and theism.

—————————

Rugoz wrote:Religions are ideologies. They have books with rules and ideas you're supposed to believe in otherwise you end up burning in hell.

The idea that religions do not cause conflict is so utterly prepesterous it isn't even worth debating.

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.


Yes, the Albigensian Crusade is probably the clearest example of a war fought over religion.
User avatar
By Julian658
#15008512
Pants-of-dog wrote:Your original claim was that “for the murderous commies atheism was an essential component of the doctrine. And they killed for just a disagreement and they intensely hated Christians and Jews.”

Now, I completely believe that anti-Semitism was common in Soviet Russia in 1931. From my understanding of history, anti-Semitism was common throughout most of Europe in 1931. But the demolition of a church does not support any claim of anti-Semitism.

Nor does it support any claim about killing.

While it may indicate hatred of Christianity, it is possible the church was demolished for other reasons.


How do you explain the writings of Lenin where he says:

Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism. Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.
Vladimir Lenin


As I said before: The left wing faculty of most universties do not teach anything about the millions murdered in the name of communism.

”Estimates of the total number all Christian martyrs in the former Soviet Union are about 12 million.”, James M. Nelson, “Psychology, Religion, and Spirituality”, Springer, 2009, ISBN 0387875727, p. 427
”over 20 million were martyred in Soviet prison camps”, Todd M. Johnson, “Christian Martyrdom: A global demographic assessment“, p.


So, if you think that Marxists hate religion, I would say that it would be more correct to say that some Marxists hate religion, other Marxists embrace it, and when we analyse the supposed conflicts between the Church and Marxist groups, we see that they are usually more multifaceted than a simple conflict between atheism and theism.


I agree!
But, understand that commies and socialists tend to be pragmatists and do whatever they have to do to advance the cause. Extreme right wing people probably do the same too. The pragmatism is very dangerous as they can justify any action they take. At the end of the day socialism is ALWAYS authoritarian.


Yes, the Albigensian Crusade is probably the clearest example of a war fought over religion.


The atrocities of ancient primitive people that lived near a 1000 years ago is not comparable to the murders done by enlightened 20th century pragmatic intellectuals.
User avatar
By Godstud
#15008513
Julian658 wrote:The atrocities of ancient primitive people that lived near a 1000 years ago is not comparable to the murders done by enlightened 20th century pragmatic intellectuals.
Your mistake is making the ridiculous assertion that Atheism is at fault. :knife:
User avatar
By Julian658
#15008523
Godstud wrote:Your mistake is making the ridiculous assertion that Atheism is at fault. :knife:


The genocide was due to a combination of factors that included communism (Leninism), atheism, pragmatism, authoritarianism, and psychological issues. Lenin believed atheism was an integral component of communism.
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15008527
Julian658 wrote:Condescension is always a good tactic in an argument, but sometimes it is futile.


Agreed.

Like when someone posts idiotic nonsense like "Go back to the drawing board and come back with a better argument".

If nothing else, at least I know you're a hypocrite...

I am happy that for you communism and atheism do not go together.


I never said anything of the sort. You know, if you're going to rely on belching up nonsensical lies, it's unlikely that you'll ever engage anyone in any meaningful discussion. I never said they don't go together. I said they don't have to. You can have one without the other.

Pay attention next time, m'kay?

However for the murderous commies atheism was an essential component of the doctrine.


Undoubtedly.

Having a good breakfast is an essential part of my day. If I were to go out and kill someone, would it be fair to say that people who eat breakfast are killers? Of course not...

And they killed for just a disagreement and they intensely hated Christians and Jews. By, the way many atheists still do.


So what? Many more atheists don't...
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15008528
Julian658 wrote:The genocide was due to a combination of factors that included communism (Leninism), atheism, pragmatism, authoritarianism, and psychological issues. Lenin believed atheism was an integral component of communism.


And I'd be willing to bet that you once believed in Santa Claus.

You have no point...
User avatar
By Godstud
#15008530
Julian658 wrote: Lenin believed atheism was an integral component of communism.
Hitler was a big fan of Christendom. Does that mean that Christians are responsible for the Holocaust? :hmm: This is that funny causation/correlation thing, again.

It seems we can link religion, or lack of it, to anything we want(as long as it's a "factor"... no matter how small). Is that what you're saying? :?:
User avatar
By Julian658
#15008531
BigSteve wrote:Agreed.

Like when someone posts idiotic nonsense like "Go back to the drawing board and come back with a better argument".

If nothing else, at least I know you're a hypocrite...


I will not enter into a contest with you regarding condescending remarks. You would probably win every time.


I never said anything of the sort. You know, if you're going to rely on belching up nonsensical lies, it's unlikely that you'll ever engage anyone in any meaningful discussion. I never said they don't go together. I said they don't have to. You can have one without the other.


You said: Communism and Atheism are not mutually exclusive...
So be it.


Pay attention next time, m'kay?


You are a pro dude!

Having a good breakfast is an essential part of my day. If I were to go out and kill someone, would it be fair to say that people who eat breakfast are killers? Of course not...


OK, that is a fair point. But, this is what Lenin and Marx said:

Communism begins where atheism begins.

The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition of religion.

I wish to avenge myself against the One who rules above.

With disdain I will throw my gauntlet full in the fact of the world and see the collapse of this pygmy giant.
Then will I wander god-like and victorious through the ruins of the world.
And giving my words an active force, I will feel equal to the Creator.
Karl Marx




Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism.
Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.

Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.

Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism.
Vladimir Lenin




So what? Many more atheists don't...


How do you feel about Christians?
User avatar
By Godstud
#15008535
Christians, Atheists, and people of every religion are capable of good and evil. Neither is better than the other in this regard, despite what you might "believe".

Linking Atheism to the Communist ideology doesn't make it evil. What determines whether it is "evil" or not, is how it is implemented. As I already demonstrated through sources, this wasn't resulting in mass murders, but simply suppression of worship and the religion as an institution.
User avatar
By Julian658
#15008537
BigSteve wrote:And I'd be willing to bet that you once believed in Santa Claus.

You have no point...


Ad Hominem (Argument To The Man):
attacking the person instead of attacking his argument.

Try again. By the way this time this is not a condescending phrase.
User avatar
By Julian658
#15008539
Godstud wrote:Christians, Atheists, and people of every religion are capable of good and evil. Neither is better than the other in this regard, despite what you might "believe".

Linking Atheism to the Communist ideology doesn't make it evil. What determines whether it is "evil" or not, is how it is implemented. As I already demonstrated through sources, this wasn't resulting in mass murders, but simply suppression of worship and the religion as an institution.


I agree with you. You always make sense.

However, the anti-religion atheists fail to grasp this concept. That is why i beat them over the head with the fact that Lenin thought atheism and communism were linked.
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15008542
Julian658 wrote:I will not enter into a contest with you regarding condescending remarks. You would probably win every time.


Only because I've had a great wealth of experience dealing with people like you. If you're going to deride someone for being condescending, you really should make sure you're not acting in the same fashion. Because that would make you a hypocrite...


I wish to avenge myself against the One who rules above.


I will feel equal to the Creator.


Neither of the quotes above could've been uttered by a true Atheist, as both of them acknowledge the presence of a supreme being; a "creator"...


How do you feel about Christians?


In what regard?
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15008543
Julian658 wrote:Ad Hominem (Argument To The Man):
attacking the person instead of attacking his argument.

Try again. By the way this time this is not a condescending phrase.


How in the Hell did I attack you?

Did you or did you not once believe in Santa Claus? Easter Bunny? Tooth Fairy?

Believing in something doesn't make it true.

My apologies for framing my response in such a manner which made it difficult for you to understand...
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15008544
Julian658 wrote:That is why i beat them over the head with the fact that Lenin thought atheism and communism were linked..


Your continued failing, though, is that you keep trying to promote the idea that each can exist only with the other...
User avatar
By Julian658
#15008545
BigSteve wrote:Only because I've had a great wealth of experience dealing with people like you. If you're going to deride someone for being condescending, you really should make sure you're not acting in the same fashion. Because that would make you a hypocrite...


OK. let's see how long we can go without uttering condescending remarks.

Neither of the quotes above could've been uttered by a true Atheist, as both of them acknowledge the presence of a supreme being; a "creator"...


It is obvious he was using tongue in cheek when talking about God. Your Least Plausible Hypothesis argument is weak. Stalin called for an "atheist five year plan" from 1932–1937, led by the LMG, in order to completely eliminate all religious expression in the USSR.

In what regard?


Three possibilities: You are indifferent, or you dislike or like Christians.
User avatar
By Julian658
#15008546
BigSteve wrote:Your continued failing, though, is that you keep trying to promote the idea that each can exist only with the other...


Atheism is neither evil or good. I simply bring up the point of communist atheism when atheists blame Christianity for all the evils in the world. I say this to see if i can open their eyes. Many atheists exist in echo chambers and they just repeat recycled worn out statements.
User avatar
By Julian658
#15008547
BigSteve wrote:How in the Hell did I attack you?

Did you or did you not once believe in Santa Claus? Easter Bunny? Tooth Fairy?

Believing in something doesn't make it true.


Straw man

My apologies for framing my response in such a manner which made it difficult for you to understand...


Condescending argument. I know, I know, old habits are hard to give up. If the latter sounds condescending it was not intentional. No worries, we will eventually have an argument with no BS fallacies.
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