[AFAIK]

This happened when the US fled Vietnam and is happening now in Afghanistan. Many of these infants appear to be taken with the enthusiastic consent of their parents but if we oppose family seperation at our domestic borders why do we support it overseas? If we hate the MENA and LA immigrants who flee our bombs, puppet tyrants and IMF dictats why are we dragging kids out of crowds and removing them from their communities and even their families? Did we grant asylum to Afghani infants when the Taliban was our ally under SU occupation?

At the same time mixed race children who were fathered by US GIs aren't granted automatic access to the retreating country.

This turned into a rant at hypocrisy but I'm still conflicted about the policy. Are we helping people or hurting them when we take children away from their countries and even their families?

[AFAIK]

I'm reading about operation babylift and found some interesting articles;

As they marshaled the resources to care for thousands of children, volunteers—who were not involved in the decision to receive or adopt out children—quickly began to doubt whether every child was without family

“There are unquestionably children in the airlift who are true orphans,” Jane Barton, a translator from the American Friends Services Committee told the San Francisco Chronicle on April 13, 1975. “But I talked to a number of children who said they are not orphans.”

Howe, too, had concerns.

“I felt it before we closed out our work,” says Howe. “The word ‘felt’ is important—I had no proof.”

Did the U.S. save kids—or steal them? The legacy of Operation Babylift is a deeply complicated one. Lawsuits were filed on behalf of the children including one brought by the Center for Constitutional Rights in 1975 that sought to reunite adoptees with living relatives. Some have successfully formed relationships with biological family as adults while others are still searching. Many have made the pilgrimage back to Vietnam to reconnect with their roots, reversing the flights they took over 40 years ago, scattered in the cabin of an airplane filled with crying babies.
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/a ... -to-the-us

Many of the children had living parents in Vietnam, and the extended family culture of the Vietnamese does not recognize the Western concept of being an orphan. Nevertheless, no attempt was made to locate the families or friends of many of the children before placing them on the Babylift.

The CCR, with the assistance of California lawyers, filed a class action on the children’s behalf, seeking to reunite them with their families and prevent the finalization of any adoptions. The suit was based on the theory that the children were being detained in violation of their rights to liberty and due process of law under the Fifth Amendment.
[...]
On November 5, 1975, the Ninth Circuit issued a remarkable written opinion, reversing its earlier one. This opinion recognized that some of the children may be here in violation of their constitutional rights and international law, granted plaintiffs’ request to review the documents of all the children, asserted the court’s right to make determination of the eligibility, and conceded that many children were put on planes by parents who did not realize the full impact of their actions.

Meanwhile, the INS had proceeded with the record checks and, according to the testimony of an INS commissioner before the House Subcommittee on Immigration, had concluded that of 1,830 children investigated, at least 274 were not eligible for adoption. In addition, the Commissioner indicated that the INS had learned that some of the records were falsified, and acknowledged that the investigation would never have been done if not for this lawsuit.

https://ccrjustice.org/home/what-we-do/ ... -kissinger

Also wanting to know more is teacher Tricia Houston, whose birth documents said her father was American and her mother was a Vietnamese maid. She recently took a DNA test to determine her ethnicity.

“100% Asian. 100% Southeast Asian that was a shock,” she recalled.

An even bigger shock came when she learned she was a DNA match for a Vietnamese man, her father, who had been searching for her his entire life. They were recently reunited.
https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/ ... s-orphans/

'Plucked from our Vietnamese heritage'

While grateful for being adopted into a loving family, Ms Doeke said it’s hard not to be affected by the trauma of being abandoned and removed from her birth family.

"Partly what I've struggled with now, now that I'm older, is that we've been plucked from our Asian heritage and then we've been placed in a Western background and we've had to assimilate into Western lifestyles.

"A lot of the adoptees' families don’t realise that it has affected us in some way. I don't think it's intentional, but it has affected a lot of us in small ways, or large ways.

"So unfortunately, a lot of us are still trying to learn that side of the Vietnamese culture because we haven’t been educated enough. I haven’t been around a lot of Vietnamese people which I’m trying to do that now in my adulthood."

Ms Doecke said there were times she felt out of place for being Vietnamese and would often change her appearance to fit in.

"We've been the brunt of racial slurs along the way. I remember being a child and I hear people say things to mum, even in my adulthood, it still happens today," she explained.

"Obviously they see me with a white mother and a white father and couple of white siblings, so they'd go, 'Oh okay'. It wasn't that I was embarrassed but maybe I was trying to fit in – into western society. Trying to be more accepted."

But her mother, Gillian Diggins remembers the town being very accepting of the family, albeit curious at the sight of two Vietnamese girls.

"We did stand out a lot. We didn’t see people of different colours, like you do today," she said. "People used to stop us and ask questions in those days.

"We didn't have a problem with acceptance through the community at large. No problem at all. Neighbours and friends, everyone supported us. No nastiness."

'I experienced racism even though I was brought up to be white'

As a young Vietnamese adoptee living in rural Mt Gambier in South Australia, Dominic Hong Duc Golding said growing up was difficult.

Mr Golding, now 40, said he was constantly reminded of his "otherness".

"I experienced quite a lot of racism growing up. But I also experienced a lot of exclusion because I was not white, even though I was brought up to be white.

"I was told so often at school that I’m different, I'm Asian, 'you don't belong here', 'go back to where you come from' – being called a 'gook' or a 'charlie'.

"So there's these constant statements of otherness. Or reinforcing the fact that I’m not an Australian has made me want to investigate and try to take some kind of ownership of my own Vietnamese heritage."

Operation DNA

Trista Goldberg is the founder of Operation Reunite, an organisation that helps adopted Vietnamese children find their birth family through paper trails and DNA testing.

While based in the US, the database is open to all Vietnamese adoptees around the world who are hoping to find a genetic match. Adopted Vietnamese International is another resource for Australian Vietnamese adoptees.

"A lot the adoptees struggle with the decision to take a DNA test because they really don’t know what they will find," said Ms Goldberg. "Searching and finding birth families is never an easy process. It’s a very complex emotional struggle for most adoptees."

For some, like Mr Golding and Ms Doeke, taking a DNA test is their only hope. They're both currently in Ho Chi Minh City to mark the 40th anniversary of Operation Babylift with other adoptees, and will use the trip to continue searching for their biological family.

"I'm taking my 12-year-old son with me when go back to Vietnam [for the anniversary]," said Ms Doecke. "I said to him, 'This is what you need to see. You need to see where I was born. You need to see what could've been my life.'

"I feel so at ease when I go back at home to Vietnam – and I call it home. [Australia] is where I live, Vietnam is my home."
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/from-saigon ... 0-years-on

[Crantag]

Sounds stupid, ridiculous, and fucked up.

Never heard of this stuff before.

[wat0n]

It depends on the situation. I think family reunification should be available for parents who let their children go, hoping for a better life too.

Also this would not be done without the consent of living parents/guardians.

[AFAIK]

Why do you support family separation to start with @wat0n?
Why not grant the whole family asylum at the same time?

[wat0n]

Why do you support family separation to start with @wat0n?
Why not grant the whole family asylum at the same time?

It may not be feasible at the time. What if for instance it's unlikely the whole family will manage to get out, so they just hand their babies?

[AFAIK]

It may not be feasible at the time. What if for instance it's unlikely the whole family will manage to get out, so they just hand their babies?

Then the retreating soldiers should refuse to take them. Separation anxiety is traumatising for infants.

[wat0n]

Then the retreating soldiers should refuse to take them. Separation anxiety is traumatising for infants.

Probably less than death or famine... And it's not like they can't be separated regardless if they are refused...

[AFAIK]

False dichotomy. Vietnam didn't lose an entire generation of infants to a non existent famine. If that was the motive why didn't we commission dozens of cruise ships and moor them off the coast? That would make reaching Australia much easier for the boat people who missed these flights.

Just because someone is capable of comitting suicide by themselves doesn't mean we should assist them. Just because a drug addict can buy a fix on a street corner doesn't mean doctors should prescribe opiates to them. There are many situations in which we decline to enable harmful behaviours.

@wat0n

[wat0n]

False dichotomy. Vietnam didn't lose an entire generation of infants to a non existent famine. If that was the motive why didn't we commission dozens of cruise ships and moor them off the coast? That would make reaching Australia much easier for the boat people who missed these flights.

Just because someone is capable of comitting suicide by themselves doesn't mean we should assist them. Just because a drug addict can buy a fix on a street corner doesn't mean doctors should prescribe opiates to them. There are many situations in which we decline to enable harmful behaviours.

@wat0n

That's with the benefit of hindsight, though. Back in 1975, it was far from clear what would the future bring, and it was also not a foregone conclusion that the children of collaborators would be OK.

[AFAIK]

Operation babylift was an attempt to evacuate orphans. It wasn't for the benefit of collaborators and there was no fear of famine at the time.
_____

Thanks for discussing this with me, btw. It's really helped me organise my thoughts.

[late]

The family has been reunited.

[Patrickov]

This happened when the US fled Vietnam and is happening now in Afghanistan. Many of these infants appear to be taken with the enthusiastic consent of their parents but if we oppose family seperation at our domestic borders why do we support it overseas?

What is the problem when the said infant's parents enthusiastically consent this separation? The lack of consent is actually an important reason which would make such separations wrong.

That said, the child should be well educated on their migration and, if possible, have regular contact with the biological parents.

Of course, the parents' ideals are probably to join the infant themselves.

[Patrickov]

Operation babylift was an attempt to evacuate orphans. It wasn't for the benefit of collaborators...

It should be. Unless you see collaborators as universally evil.

[B0ycey]

Why do you support family separation to start with @wat0n?
Why not grant the whole family asylum at the same time?

It is the family who are deciding to separate given the likelihood is the child will be better off in America than in Afghanistan. What is a soldier to do if the mother hands over the child and then runs?

As for the whole family claiming asylum, I suspect that is always the plan anyway. You think these children aren't loaded with all the details anyone needs to know who the family is? The right to a family life is a human right enshrined by the UN. Take the child, the family can get though in the backdoor. Desperate times equals desperate measures and I guess people in Afghanistan will do anything to get out right now. The question is, what will the authorities do with the information when found. Disregarded information is immoral but something you can do to close the loophole.

[Crantag]

It is the family who are deciding to separate given the likelihood is the child will be better off in America than in Afghanistan. What is a soldier to do if the mother hands over the child and then runs?

As for the whole family claiming asylum, I suspect that is always the plan anyway. You think these children aren't loaded with all the details anyone needs to know who the family is? The right to a family life is a human right enshrined by the UN. Take the child, the family can get though in the backdoor. Desperate times equals desperate measures and I guess people in Afghanistan will do anything to get out right now. The question is, what will the authorities do with the information when found. Disregarded information is immoral but something you can do to close the loophole.

I have again never thought about this issue or heard of it, but it stinks of kidnapping, by an invading power. Latte drinkers will get to adopt an Afghan child. They can parade it along with their pomeranian.

You mention a couple contrived scenarios. Sure, those things probably happen. Occasionally. You mentioned two extremes, really.

I doubt that it is usually a case where a woman hands a child to a soldier, and runs away.

And, I also doubt that there are often good records kept. (I could be wrong, but I doubt it, on the basis of intuition.)

What I think you don't consider is how people can often behave irrationally in panicked situations.

Like, giving away their babies to Americans.

It all seems stupid, ridiculous, and fucked up to me.

[B0ycey]

I have again never thought about this issue or heard of it, but it stinks of kidnapping, by an invading power. Latte drinkers will get to adopt an Afghan child. They can parade it along with their pomeranian.

American soldiers aren't snatching babies @Crantag. They are being handed them... literally. They are at the airport for logistic support as well as security, and women without visas, rather than trying to get on the plane, are handing over their children to the guards instead. Perhaps the memo today is whatever you do don't hold the baby, but yesterday they did and once they have possession of the child their mother will disappear. The iconic image yesterday of the baby being grabbed over the wall for example was because the mother claimed the child was ill. The soldier took it to hospital and now it back with the family. How did they know who they were? Perhaps because the child had the details with it. Unfortunately for the family, it wasn't taken to America for medical treatment.

[B0ycey]

What I think you don't consider is how people can often behave irrationally in panicked situations.

Also the behaviour is very predictable @Crantag. It is after all the behaviour we all share if we were in the same position. The parents would know the child is safe with the soldiers, far more than they would if it was left behind. And of course, if you can get out as well in the long term, all the better.

[Crantag]

American soldiers aren't snatching babies @Crantag. They are being handed them... literally. They are at the airport for logistic support as well as security, and women without visas, rather than trying to get on the plane, are handing over their children to the guards instead. Perhaps the memo today is whatever you do don't hold the baby, but yesterday they did and once they have possession of the child their mother will disappear. The iconic image yesterday of the baby being grabbed over the wall for example was because the mother claimed the child was ill. The soldier took it to hospital and now it back with the family. How did they know who they were? Perhaps because the child had the details with it. Unfortunately for the family, it wasn't taken to America for medical treatment.

Yeah, there's really just a whole spectrum of circumstances, or reasoning on the part of the parents.

I've never had kids, but I can certainly see how it could be that some women feel unable to take care of their baby, under the current circumstances.

I guess that I was a little extreme there. Once more, I never considered this topic, but I guess I can see how it is a thing.

It is hard to see how good records would be kept, though.

Also, I am pretty jaded about the US. I am American, but only lived here for 4 of the last 12 years. They have lost the illusionary moral standing in the world. People giving off their children to go to America, where the streets are paved in gold, is also a thing of illusion. America is a shithole.

However, I can certainly see a lot of potential where a woman feels unable to care for her child under the present circumstances, and is seeking to give it a better chance.

[Crantag]

Also the behaviour is very predictable @Crantag. It is after all the behaviour we all share if we were in the same position. The parents would know the child is safe with the soldiers, far more than they would if it was left behind. And of course, if you can get out as well in the long term, all the better.

This post is actually contradictory. You concede that people often behave irrationally in panicked situations, and then you proceed to ascribe a rational standpoint.

I sincerely doubt there is any real record keeping. Think of the logistics in the midst of chaos.

Any way such a thing as this is institutionalized, as in whereby there is any indication given by the American side that they are willing to accept babies (if such a thing is going on), it seems very bad to me, and potentially very immoral.

However, it is understandable if some parents/single mothers feel unable to take care of their young kids, and feel this is a better hope for them.

They are surely going through extreme struggles. Due to the shithole country, America.