Hypocrisy - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Wellsy
#15204213
“ He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone…”

“ A Great Rabbi stands, teaching in the marketplace. It happens that a husband finds proof that morning of his wife's adultery, and a mob carries her to the marketplace to stone her to death.

There is a familiar version of this story, but a friend of mine - a Speaker for the Dead - has told me of two other Rabbis that faced the same situation. Those are the ones I'm going to tell you.

The Rabbi walks forward and stands beside the woman. Out of respect for him the mob forbears and waits with the stones heavy in their hands. 'Is there any man here,' he says to them, 'who has not desired another man's wife, another woman's husband?'
They murmur and say, 'We all know the desire, but Rabbi none of us has acted on it.'

The Rabbi says, 'Then kneel down and give thanks that God has made you strong.' He takes the woman by the hand and leads her out of the market. Just before he lets her go, he whispers to her, 'Tell the Lord Magistrate who saved his mistress, then he'll know I am his loyal servant.'

So the woman lives because the community is too corrupt to protect itself from disorder.

Another Rabbi. Another city. He goes to her and stops the mob as in the other story and says, 'Which of you is without sin? Let him cast the first stone.'

The people are abashed, and they forget their unity of purpose in the memory of their own individual sins. ‘Someday,’ they think, ‘I may be like this woman. And I’ll hope for forgiveness and another chance. I should treat her as I wish to be treated.’

As they opened their hands and let their stones fall to the ground, the Rabbi picks up one of the fallen stones, lifts it high over the woman’s head and throws it straight down with all his might it crushes her skull and dashes her brain among the cobblestones. ‘Nor am I without sins,’ he says to the people, ‘but if we allow only perfect people to enforce the law, the law will soon be dead – and our city with it.’

So the woman died because her community was too rigid to endure her deviance.

The famous version of this story is noteworthy because it is so startlingly rare in our experience. Most communities lurch between decay and rigor mortis and when they veer too far they die. Only one Rabbi dared to expect of us such a perfect balance that we could preserve the law and still forgive the deviation.

So of course, we killed him.

-San Angelo
Letters to an Incipient Heretic”
- https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/249409-a-great-rabbi-stands-teaching-in-the-marketplace-it-happens

Why is hypocrisy so morally offensive?
And how does it apply, if at all, to state actors?

Are we misplaced in condemning the actions of other states while our own nation commits morally equivalent wrongs? Does our condemnation stand as correct as long as we are willing to condemn our own nation states?

No one is pure, but is it wrong to emphasize the wrongs of a particular group while neglecting to mention all others? What does it mean if we agree that one nation commits a wrong and so does another in a similar case? Two wrongs don’t make a right so the tension disappears in a puff of smoke.
What is the place of moral condemnation on the international level? How does moral condemnation hold any merit?

[url]banmarchive.org.uk/collections/nr/08_89.pdf[/url]
As against the Stalinist it is an assertion of moral absolutes; as
against the liberal critic of Stalinism it is an assertion of desire and ' of history. To begin with the contrast with the liberal. The liberal sees himself as choosing his values. The Marxist sees himself as discovering them. He discovers them as he rediscovers fundamental human desire; this is a discovery he can only make in company with others. The ideal of human solidarity, expressed in the work- ing-class movement, only has point because of the fact of human solidarity which comes to light in the discovery of what we want. So the Marxist never speaks morally just for himself. He speaks in the name of whole historical development, in the name of a human nature which is violated by exploitation and its accompanying evils. The man who cuts himself off from other people (and this has no content unless we realise that the vast mass of other people is the working class) says at first ' I want' and then just ' want'. His ' I ought' is the most tremulous of moral utterances. For it represents nothing but his own choice. So the liberal moral critic of Stalinism isolates himself, makes his utterance unintelligible and has no defence against the patterns of conformism which his society seeks at every point to enforce upon him.

To speak for human possibility as it emerges, to speak for our shared desires, this is to speak for an absolute. There are things you can do which deny your common humanity with others so that they isolate you as effectively as if you were a liberal. It is for this reason that the Marxist condemns the H-Bomb. Anyone who would use this has contracted out of common humanity. So with the denial of racial equality, so with the rigged trial. The con- demnation of Imre Nagy was an act which cut off its authors from humanity. Because in denying the rights and desires of others you deny that they and you share desires and rights in exactly the same way. You only possess either in so far as you have them in common with others.
User avatar
By ingliz
#15204244
Wellsy wrote: How does moral condemnation hold any merit?

Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless.
Not to speak is to speak.
Not to act is to act.


― Dietrich Bonhoeffer, theologian
User avatar
By Wellsy
#15204366
ingliz wrote:Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless.
Not to speak is to speak.
Not to act is to act.


― Dietrich Bonhoeffer, theologian

That’s a very strong call to action.

It does suggest that no matter our own failings, that we should speak up about wrongs and address them.
That while some figure may be an adulterer and we can say they were wrong in that regard, they still remained emblematic of a struggle against something wrong.
Although martyrs and such are served by an appearence of moral purity.

But with hypocrisy it seems the offense comes when the misdeeds of one are comparable to the misdeed they condemn.
So when kne state is condemned for its attack on domestic freedoms, one might try to pierce the hegemonic veil of ones own state in emphasizing how it does much the same thing.

In doing so, in cutting every state down to size do we necessarily condone it or simply state facts and point out hypocrisy. That to fixate on any one state is a bias, where the fact of the matter may be true but what motivates the fixation on one state is untrue.

Like how might accept a state is doing many wrongs but are opposed to the assumed benevolence of other states seeking to morally justifying and legitimize interventions of varying degrees.
User avatar
By Wellsy
#15204370
late wrote:Sounds like a lot of hooey to me.

Tis my modus operandi when thinking aloud/through things.
By late
#15204373
Wellsy wrote:
Tis my modus operandi when thinking aloud/through things.



"Most communities lurch between decay and rigor mortis.."

Why bother getting out of bed...
User avatar
By Wellsy
#15204416
late wrote:"Most communities lurch between decay and rigor mortis.."

Why bother getting out of bed...

I don’t think this is necessarily controversial in that many institutions or projects are quite active in their continuation and maintenance.
For example one could see a movement within the tradition of different sciences where and when people fond it to not be living up to its ideal/concept, and as such criticize the existing conditions as part of an effort to make it better realize its concept.
Communities are often a collection of activities/projects and with individual actors committed to various projects and with varying motives.
They must often adapt to changes and challenges. The decay being the neglect of the values of some tradition/practice while rigor mortis can be the absolutism of ideals to the extent that it becomes too restrictive to necessary changes.

Trying to maintain any community takes work and is constantly in work even while it may seem solidified by habits which maintain its existence.
By late
#15247243
BlutoSays wrote:

Robert Byrd



The old lies are the best, eh?

Unlike you, Byrd changed. He didn't just renounce racism, he went to the opposite end of that spectrum. As a result, he got overwhelming support from the Black community.

Which means he also became the opposite of Republican.

And the opposite of you.
User avatar
By Rancid
#15247269
Wellsy wrote: Does our condemnation stand as correct as long as we are willing to condemn our own nation states?


Yes, because then it's a consistent stance.

The nation you live in, is not an extension of yourself. If your nation does morally wrong things, that doesn't automatically mean you are morally wrong, especially if you condemn those things and work against them.

This is the trick/scam political groups will often do. They like to instill (via propaganda and manipulation) the idea of attaching anything a nation does directly to all its people. It's useful, it's how you whip up support against a group that has been defined as "other". Authoritarian regimes do this easiest (see China,. Russia), but it happens everywhere (see MAGA, Republicans, democrats).

The key is to not get caught up in that shit, and stay consistent.
User avatar
By BlutoSays
#15247420
late wrote:The old lies are the best, eh?

Unlike you, Byrd changed. He didn't just renounce racism, he went to the opposite end of that spectrum. As a result, he got overwhelming support from the Black community.

Which means he also became the opposite of Republican.

And the opposite of you.




Hey pal, I don't GAF if he changed.


Image
By late
#15247465
BlutoSays wrote:
Hey pal, I don't GAF if he changed.





Most of his voters did care, obviously.

But they aren't sociopaths...
User avatar
By Local Localist
#15247659
Wellsy wrote:Why is hypocrisy so morally offensive?
And how does it apply, if at all, to state actors?

Are we misplaced in condemning the actions of other states while our own nation commits morally equivalent wrongs? Does our condemnation stand as correct as long as we are willing to condemn our own nation states?


To me, this seems like it would only be a concern for people who embrace their nation-state as a representative of their people (eg. 'well at least our country has elections').

For me, criticism of the policy or practice of a nation state wouldn't come from that kind of nationalist conception of reality, and it would be presented in a more person-discussing-an-institution kind of way. I think that fundamentally a person cannot be accountable for problems in the same way as the institution with a monopoly on violence can - such an institution is inherently authoritarian. In this sense, it troubles me the way people go on about 'authoritarians' as though you can atomise such a concept in that way. I think that if 'authoritarian' could refer to anything concrete at all, it wouldn't be a personality, but a degree of power.
By late
#15247693
Local Localist wrote:
In this sense, it troubles me the way people go on about 'authoritarians' as though you can atomise such a concept in that way. I think that if 'authoritarian' could refer to anything concrete at all, it wouldn't be a personality, but a degree of power.





An authoritarian state has the power concentrated in the hands of very few people. As imperfect as we are, we're not that bad. Unless Republicans give us a dictator, of course.

I visited Europe in 72, I went to Soviet dominated Hungary, and fascist Spain. I learned an important lesson about concentrating power in the hands of a small elite. The more that power is concentrated, the worse off it is for everyone else.
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By ckaihatsu
#15247696
Local Localist wrote:
people who embrace their nation-state as a representative of their people (eg. 'well at least our country has elections').



*Any* country's officialdom / government should *always* be seen as a-means-to-an-ends, otherwise it wouldn't even be *necessary* (to exist).

In the following framework I have the trans-local 'levels' of 'rulers / popular leaders / presidents / officials', *and* 'movements / institutions', 'empires / nation-states / city-states', and 'regional culture' as all being within the general scope of 'logistics'.

That whole bunch, within 'logistics', is *above* 'lifestyle' -- which tends to imply singular persons, or local-level small groups.

'Logistics' is ultimately *overhead* to 'lifestyle', and if people find that they can *dispense* with certain kinds of logistical-overhead, then that's what could very well *happen*.


‭History, Macro-Micro -- politics-logistics-lifestyle

Spoiler: show
Image
User avatar
By Local Localist
#15247717
late wrote:An authoritarian state has the power concentrated in the hands of very few people. As imperfect as we are, we're not that bad. Unless Republicans give us a dictator, of course.

I visited Europe in 72, I went to Soviet dominated Hungary, and fascist Spain. I learned an important lesson about concentrating power in the hands of a small elite. The more that power is concentrated, the worse off it is for everyone else.


Indeed, and perhaps you could call such people authoritarian, in a sense. I'm more referring to the way it's used to describe someone's beliefs, though. Like, the idea that someone can be an 'authoritarian' in the same way as they can be an introvert or a Steven King reader. I don't think that's possible.
User avatar
By Local Localist
#15247719
ckaihatsu wrote:*Any* country's officialdom / government should *always* be seen as a-means-to-an-ends, otherwise it wouldn't even be *necessary* (to exist).

In the following framework I have the trans-local 'levels' of 'rulers / popular leaders / presidents / officials', *and* 'movements / institutions', 'empires / nation-states / city-states', and 'regional culture' as all being within the general scope of 'logistics'.

That whole bunch, within 'logistics', is *above* 'lifestyle' -- which tends to imply singular persons, or local-level small groups.

'Logistics' is ultimately *overhead* to 'lifestyle', and if people find that they can *dispense* with certain kinds of logistical-overhead, then that's what could very well *happen*.


‭History, Macro-Micro -- politics-logistics-lifestyle

Spoiler: show
Image


I strongly question the way 'culture' and 'events' are placed on the same system of 'levels' as institutions and economic trends. Aren't economic trends directly informed by 'events', for instance? What sort of 'regional culture' does logistics take into account? Those two categories seem much too broad in comparison to the others.
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By ckaihatsu
#15247721
Local Localist wrote:
I strongly question the way 'culture' and 'events' are placed on the same system of 'levels' as institutions and economic trends.



Overall, the intended index here is *by scale* ('macro-micro'), so that 'events' are typically *local* / 'lower-level', by empirical geography.

'Culture' tends to be by broad *geographical region* -- and, being 'above-the-head' of nation-states, is often their 'purpose', to influence and shape the overall culture according to their own nationalist 'civilizational' culture.


Local Localist wrote:
Aren't economic trends directly informed by 'events', for instance?



No, the *opposite*, I would argue, since economic *velocity* / trajectory over time tends to take on a *life of its own* -- which is why we have to speak of the 'real economy' *separately* (from all of the financial overhang).


Local Localist wrote:
What sort of 'regional culture' does logistics take into account? Those two categories seem much too broad in comparison to the others.



'Logistics' includes those 3-4 regular 'levels' of societal functioning, as I outlined -- I'd say 'regional culture' *tops-off* the larger 'logistics' scope because it would include such upper-level trans-national societal-paradigm aspects as 'mythos', 'authority', 'way of life', etc. (Today we might point to big-box-store and/or online 'commercial culture', for example, which parallels corporate capitalism -- which is itself trans-national, or 'regional'.)
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By ckaihatsu
#15247723
I'll add that, all that being said, the framework doesn't have to be as fixed and unchanging as it looks. More to the point, of course, is if it's usable for *your own* use-case / situation, so for 'your' particular project you may *want* to go-ahead and move some shelves around in the framework, if that would make more sense in that particular case.

I'd recommend using a flat-file spreadsheet, and/or Linux -- also made a guide to it:


database-type functionality

A Few Tools for Your Computer [March 16, 2022]

viewtopic.php?p=15218131#p15218131
User avatar
By Local Localist
#15247736
ckaihatsu wrote:Overall, the intended index here is *by scale* ('macro-micro'), so that 'events' are typically *local* / 'lower-level', by empirical geography.

'Culture' tends to be by broad *geographical region* -- and, being 'above-the-head' of nation-states, is often their 'purpose', to influence and shape the overall culture according to their own nationalist 'civilizational' culture.


Yeah, but see you can only speak of it in general, theoretical terms. A culture isn't a tangible aspect of society, and is comprised of more tangible elements such as technology and social movements.

ckaihatsu wrote:'Logistics' includes those 3-4 regular 'levels' of societal functioning, as I outlined -- I'd say 'regional culture' *tops-off* the larger 'logistics' scope because it would include such upper-level trans-national societal-paradigm aspects as 'mythos', 'authority', 'way of life', etc. (Today we might point to big-box-store and/or online 'commercial culture', for example, which parallels corporate capitalism -- which is itself trans-national, or 'regional'.)


This is the issue with specifying 'regional' culture as well. In the modern era Australia is far more culturally proximal to Canada than to its nearest neighbours. The Catholic Church has influence in regions around the world. Factors such as the internet and the 'informationisation' of economies have further linked such trans-continental cultural spheres together, and yet none of this is covered by a regionalist conception of culture.

ckaihatsu wrote:No, the *opposite*, I would argue, since economic *velocity* / trajectory over time tends to take on a *life of its own* -- which is why we have to speak of the 'real economy' *separately* (from all of the financial overhang).


Yes, but this is what I mean. What are 'events'? Are economic trends not events? It seems to me that the term denotes temporality, but within that realm it could be used to describe anything.

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