[Drlee]

@Godstud I have heard you and Dr. Lee claim several times now that medical conditions that cause obesity are very rare and are just exceptions to the rule. On page 1 you wrote "Obesity due to medical problems is an extremely small minority(less than 1%)". I don't think that's true.

Do you know how many women suffer from polycystic ovary syndrome. Well, let's find out.

"PCOS is one of the most common causes of female infertility, affecting 6% to 12% (as many as 5 million) of US women of reproductive age."

To be honest I didn't even know what it was until someone told me about it. That's quite a lot of people, don't you think?

And that is just one of MANY types of conditions that cause obesity.

So I think you're wrong when you say that these cases are merely "exceptions".

Nice cherry pick. Hirsuteness and male pattern baldness are more common symptoms. And, I know you will be happy to know, that even it is was a major cause of obesity, and it is not, it is very easy to treat the insulin resistance that some experience and which may lead to obesity in those not aware of their condition. And while we are on the subject, lets look at your list:

1. Hypothyroidism

Very easy to treat.

2. Polycystic Ovary Syndrome

Sort of thought you were joking here. So one of the major treatments of this condition is weight loss. It is not only one of the causes, it is one of the cures.

3. Low Testosterone

Could not be easier to treat.

4. Medications

What medications? Easy to fix.

5. Peri-menopause

Nice excuse for not taking care of yourself.

6. Physical Disabilities

Which ones cause obesity? I am waiting.

7. Mental Illness

So fat people are crazy? Please.

8. Cancer

Which cancers cause obesity?

10. Environment

What does this mean? Being raised in or living in an environment that encourages obesity? You mean like the US and most of the rest of the world?

9. Genetics

And we have covered this before. NOBODY HERE ESPECIALLY GODSTUD. MISTY AND I are saying that obesity is fair. Lots of things are unfair. Some people can't be pilots because they have bad eyes. Genetics. Some people are very short. Genetics. On and on.

So for some people loosing weight is harder than for others. Sucks to have this problem and to overcome it to have to work harder. But here is the thing. Nobody here, especially Godstud, Misty and I are saying that it is not OK for someone to decide to be obese. That is their choice. They should not be denigrated for it. But not-denigrating them does not include absolving them from the responsibility of their choices.

I may be able to lose weight very easily. (Not so but...) Another person may have to work harder. Yet another can't seem to gain weight no matter what they do. But we are responsible for every bite we put in our mouths and every minute we spend with our feet on our desk.

Recently I noticed that my blood sugar was creeping up. It tends to do that when one gets older I am told. So I took steps. I went to whole wheat when I eat bread at all. I stopped eating sweets. Almost completely as a matter of fact. Cut down on calories. And I extended my daily walk to an hour or more; and more briskly I might add. Lo and behold, my A1C dropped well into the normal range. But I had a choice. I could have gotten metformin, continued to eat irresponsibly and consider myself just another victim of old age.

Let me tell you about my wonderful dinner I just had. A HUGE salad of power greens from Costco. Fresh blueberries. Fresh raspberries. Fresh Grapes. Sliced tomatoes. Two moderate slices of Cabernet infused cheese. A couple of tablespoons of vinegar, olive oil, lemon juice and tarragon dressing. A salad the size of a dinner plate piled high. Ice tea no sugar. (Made in the Arizona sun. Its a local thing.) I am full as I can be with stuff that is pretty good for me. I understand that my salad is not inexpensive to make at home. There is probably $5 worth of stuff on it. It was a choice.

If I had any of the diseases you mention above I could have chosen to make this meal. My wife (slim and trim as she is) had the same thing by the way but if she had wanted something else I would have made it for her.

Get my point? I did not make this salad because I am anything "phobic". No obese people were harmed in the making of my choice. I did not run over any obese people during my hour walk following the meal. And, I will have a snack later this evening. I will have a sliced apple, a little peanut butter on it and maybe a small glass of milk or some yogurt.

Tell me again what is wrong with my choices and who is the bastard who is keeping others from making similar choices. (Of course economics and supply allowing.)

[MistyTiger]

Do you know how many women suffer from polycystic ovary syndrome. Well, let's find out.

"PCOS is one of the most common causes of female infertility, affecting 6% to 12% (as many as 5 million) of US women of reproductive age."

To be honest I didn't even know what it was until someone told me about it. That's quite a lot of people, don't you think?

This condition affects ONLY WOMEN, not all people, just women. And look at that percentage, it is not a large percentage. But how many people, women and men, suffer from obesity in the world? Certainly more than 12% so you cannot just look at any obese woman and assume that she has PCOS and so that's the reason for her obesity. Or you cannot look at any random obese man on the street and assume that he is that way because of a health condition. The average obese person does not have a crippling health condition but what health issue they have like high blood pressure or plantar fasciitis, could be caused by their excessive weight. I know that once I started running, my high blood pressure went away and that was after losing 20 to 30 pounds. So I didn't get pounding headaches anymore. I rarely get headaches anymore.

You seem to be pulling numbers here and there with little comprehension of what you are talking about. This is like someone who just reads something and then regurgitates it like a reporter without offering much in the way of analysis.

I know people who exercise and used Noom or they run and they were able to lose a bit of weight. If people want to get results and they follow a routine, they can get the results they want.

[Godstud]

PCOS may be caused by obesity, so saying that PCOS causes obesity is where his argument falters.

A PCOS sufferer who lost weight:

[Politics_Observer]

@Godstud @MistyTiger @Drlee

I think we need to have a revolutionary movement that will liberate us fat folks from discrimination based on our FATNESS. Some folks, no matter what they do, are just DESTINED to be FAT where others who won the genetic lottery are destined to be skinny and acceptable to society no matter how little they exercise and how much they eat. Some people just won the genetic lottery and were thus never destined to experience FATNESS.

[Politics_Observer]

@MistyTiger @Drlee @Godstud

Some of us are just born into SUCKINESS and FATNESS. We are DOOMED to FATNESS.

[Politics_Observer]

@Drlee @MistyTiger

From nerd fitness.com https://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/study- ... wait-what/

[Godstud]

Yes, @Politics_Observer, you should be using every tool at your disposal to lose weight, and not just ONE thing. No arguments, there.

The problem, is that people like @Agent Steel are trying to normalize obesity, or remove personal accountability, and make them out to be victims. Why bother trying to lose weight when you can simply blame it on society and call people who think otherwise, "Fatphobic".

Weight loss is a combination of a LOT of things:
Diet:
Not just how much but what. Avoiding processed foods. Avoiding sugar. Eat whole foods. Don't be a vegan(unhealthy).

Exercise:
Burn calories. Doing it in a healthy way that also makes you feel good and relieves stress. Walk, run, cycle, swim, etc.

Mental health:
Be around positive people who reinforce your attempts to be healthier. Don't hang around with over-eaters and people who speak negatively to you about weight loss. Don't hang around ANYONE who uses terms like "healthy at any size". You are not healthy at any size. That's a lie. You are not beautiful when you are obese. That's another lie that they try to sell you. Being healthy is attractive. It's hard-wired into our biology.

Lifestyle changes:
Make eating well part of your life. Find healthy snacks to eat. Make fitness activities fun. Do fun things. Go for walks/hikes with friends, and socialize as you exercise. Join a sports league. Take up ballroom dancing. Take the stairs instead of the elevator, at work.

Once you start to see success with your diet plan, this will often motivate you further, but don't try crash diets and such things. Stick to a healthy plan.

You are not doomed to fatness, despite what people like @Agent Steel want you to believe.

[Politics_Observer]

@Godstud

I was just joking around and making light of those of us who struggle with our weight.

[Godstud]

I know, @Politics_Observer. I was agreeing with you while accepting your sarcasm for what it was.

[Politics_Observer]

@Godstud @MistyTiger @Drlee

When it comes to the topic of FATNESS, Godstud, Drlee, and Misty fall into the red pill category, my sarcasm falls into the black pill category, and others might fall into the blue pill category.

[Agent Steel]

@Godstud I gave you a list of conditions which cause obesity and/or make it much more difficult to lose weight.

You admitted that you yourself have not dealt with any of these things.

Yet you have the nerve to claim that anyone can lose weight, because you did. You go on to cite very simplistic understanding of obesity that doesn't take into consideration all of these other factors.

Do you see why that type of attitude contributes to fatphobia and bigotry?

[Godstud]

@Godstud I gave you a list of conditions which cause obesity and/or make it much more difficult to lose weight.

Yes. Difficult. I haven't ever said it was easy to lose weight. I agree with you.

Yet you have the nerve to claim that anyone can lose weight, because you did. You go on to cite very simplistic understanding of obesity that doesn't take into consideration all of these other factors.

You, yourself, just said it was "difficult" to lose weight. I have not disagreed with that. Anyone CAN lose weight, but factors can make it more difficult. I have never said anything else. Saying someone CANNOT lose weight, would be wrong, however.

Do you see why that type of attitude contributes to fatphobia and bigotry?

Fatphobia is not a thing. No one is afraid of fat people or afraid of fat. Many people are afraid of being unhealthy, however, but that is not fatphobia.

Being obese comes with a social stigma along with a whole slew of health problems, that disappear once you are no longer obese. No one in their right mind would CHOOSE to be obese, and it is NOT attractive, no matter what social media might tell you. They lie.

Fatphobia is mostly about women's weight problems, as men don't tend to tell each other that they are beautiful, even when fat. I don't know of any fat male models(plus sized?). Men will tell you that you're fat, and that you should hit the gym.

To tell people the reality is not bigotry. The truth is fatphobic, according to you.

[MistyTiger]

Fatphobia is a psychological, behavioral term and not an official medical term by the way. It is a "bias" and biases are discussed in psychology and sociology classes and books.

https://butterfly.org.au/weight-bias-fa ... t%20people.

I found an article that explains the origin of "fatphobia". The article also seems to be hating on the medical community for how fat people are treated. But some fat people can be belligerent and defensive about their appearance and that makes doctors wary of dealing with them. Plus, doctors have been scolded for calling anyone "fat", so it's like they cannot say the word and they don't know how to act anymore, so it's understandable that they don't want to be around these types of people for very long. They don't want lawsuits. Some heavier people can be very touchy and easily irritated.

https://withinhealth.com/learn/articles ... ght-stigma

[Godstud]

Fatphobia is complete bullshit. (It's just as dumb as labeling someone who doesn't want to sleep with a transwoman, a transphobic.) If you don't want to be fat, you're fatphobic. It's idiocy.

Humans are biased against unhealthiness. This term has been used to remove any and all criticism aimed at people who are obese, even going to so far as to imply that obese people are healthy.

Be happy in yourself, no matter what you weight, but don't go around saying it's healthy to be obese and when people speak about the reality of it, call them fatphobic. That's how fatphobia is being used.

Obese people are fitphobic. See how stupid that sounds? It's the same damned thing. Stupid.

People should be averse to obesity:

Studies have found that obesity shortens life expectancy by up to 10 years. Obesity is the 5th leading cause of death worldwide, with at least 2.8 million people dying due to health complications related to their weight.
https://bcofa.com/how-obesity-shortens- ... r%20weight.

Extreme Obesity Shaves Years Off Life Expectancy
https://irp.nih.gov/blog/post/2020/01/e ... expectancy

Obesity: It’s About More Than Extra Weight
https://www.lifespan.org/lifespan-livin ... tra-weight

Health Effects of Overweight and Obesity
All-causes of death (mortality).
High blood pressure (hypertension).

High LDL cholesterol, low HDL cholesterol, or high levels of triglycerides (dyslipidemia).

Type 2 diabetes.

Coronary heart disease.

Stroke.

Gallbladder disease.

Osteoarthritis (a breakdown of cartilage and bone within a joint).

Sleep apnea and breathing problems.

Many types of cancer.

Low quality of life.

Mental illness such as clinical depression, anxiety, and other mental disorders.

Body pain and difficulty with physical functioning.
https://www.cdc.gov/healthyweight/effects/index.html

Having an aversions to obesity is not fatphobic. It's COMMON SENSE! It's like having an aversion to getting into a cage with a leopard. Does that make you leopardphobic?

[Agent Steel]

@Godstud "No one in their right mind would CHOOSE to be obese"

That's my whole point.

That's why it's a disease.

[Godstud]

@Agent Steel You might not choose to obese(it does not happen overnight) but every time you eat you ARE making choices. Every choice you make in diet determines what you will be, be it healthy, or unhealthy. If I choose to ignore my doctor when he tells me I am getting overweight, then whose fault is it?

It's not agreed upon by any medical professionals that it's a disease. This is highly contested. It depends on who you ask.

Why Obesity Is and Isn't Considered a Disease
https://www.healthline.com/health/is-obesity-a-disease

So is it a good idea to label obesity a disease? Overall, I think yes it is despite the many controversies associated with the disease designation. These include the controversy regarding the lack of a universal definition for obesity, and whether it fits the scientific definition of a disease. There are also concerns that the definition of obesity as a disease will shift the emphasis towards treatment with surgery/medications, and away from prevention efforts via lifestyle changes, including behavior modification, diet, and exercise. There are concerns that obese people will be labeled as having a disease, even if they are not sick. This could have effects on obese individuals’ efforts to manage their weight and make lifestyle changes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6179496/

[MistyTiger]

I would not consider obesity a disease. It is not caused by cancerous cells. How people accumulate fat is a natural process. Our ancestors did not have a problem with fat accumulation because they did more manual labor and they moved around more. They didn't have cars or buses. They didn't have machines or smart devices.

Fat is for insulation. Much of north america has a cold climate for much of the year. Stored fat can provide people with energy. Fat is actually not evil or bad. But there is always too much of it if a person does not get up off the couch and move.

[Agent Steel]

@Godstud I want to know something. Do you consider obesity a moral failing?

[Godstud]

@Agent Steel I have never said it was a moral failing. You want to pretend that's what I meant, but I don't. And, I am sorry, but fat people can't use the victim narrative for a situation they put themselves into.

You are in complete control of what you eat. I am speaking generally and not about people with actual eating disorders, which are very RARE.

Obesity can be indicative of person with poor self discipline and laziness, but not a moral failing. They might be a just and moral person despite being obese. I have never said otherwise.

[Agent Steel]

In cases where it is caused by poor self discipline and laziness, why would that not be a moral failing? Aren't those negative ethical traits?