[noemon]

We don't have children. At the time we wanted them, we were students with little income. Going for artifical insemination wasn't an option.

I disagree with the pope.

In fairness, I do not think the Pope is talking about you though. He is not attacking people who could not have kids for one reason or another.

He is talking about those who consciously opt to substitute kids for pets. Not those that due to the wheels of fortune have ended up with pets instead of kids.

[Stormsmith]

Hiya

He did say we should be encouraged to adopt. This wasn't an option either, again financial.

[Pants-of-dog]

Hiya

He did say we should be encouraged to adopt. This wasn't an option either, again financial.

Yes, the pressures that make people choose to not have kids are the same as those that make people not adopt.

To this end, the Pope missed an opportunity. He could have addressed financial instability and other pressures, as well as providing some sort of program to address these pressures.

[Stormsmith]

Pants-of-dog:

Agreed. if governments increased minimum wage so two working parents could have kiddies, more people might look at adoption but there are n't that many babies awaiting adoption. It seems mostly older kids need homes and families. If the government made sure they get the kids who would benefit from mental and or physical care that would help

I suppose in some places they do. I'll see later if I can find a study

Two working people who can't afford a kid...holy Walmart! When I was a kid no one's mom worked.

[Skynet]

It is calculated by totalling the age-specific fertility rates as defined over five-year intervals. Assuming no net migration and unchanged mortality, a total fertility rate of 2.1 children per woman ensures a broadly stable population.

https://www.google.com/search?q=minimum ... e&ie=UTF-8

1.7 children per woman is not correct, 2.1 children it needs... this means even majority muslim countries in Europe are getting older.

[snapdragon]

I don’t know of anyone who had children for the good of the world. Wether they were adopted or not. They had children because they wanted them.

[Drlee]

1.7 children per woman is not correct, 2.1 children it needs...

Is that you Yoda?

[noemon]

I don’t know of anyone who had children for the good of the world. Wether they were adopted or not. They had children because they wanted them.

And the opposite is true as well. I do not know anybody who could have but decided not to have children for the "good of the world", they refused to because they wanted to be free of responsibility.

[snapdragon]

Which is good, surely? Rather than produce children they know they cannot, or don’t want to care for.

[noemon]

Debatable.

[Otis Mayfield]

I love our pets, but I love our kids more.

Sometimes I see someone's childless wife going crazy over her pets, and I think, she would make a great mom.

[Tainari88]

And the opposite is true as well. I do not know anybody who could have but decided not to have children for the "good of the world", they refused to because they wanted to be free of responsibility.

I think this hit the nail on the head. My older son was adopted because of his life circumstances. There are instances of people having children and not fully comprehending what it means in terms of responsibility and having to sacrifice to meet the needs of a family. It is very difficult for many. You have to juggle schedules, budgets and cooking and cleaning, and financial payments for development. It is not easy in the least. A lot of people don't know how to be responsible. Truly responsible for other dependent people. They want to live free of all responsibilities.

That is the big issue right there Noemon. Personal freedom and fewer responsibilities for them. The real reason many decide to never have kids--whether adopted or biological. Raising kids is not a bed of roses.

But? The rewards are spectacular Noemon. You see how you influenced your children and they are part of a history of a family. YOUR family. And you give the best of yourself. In the end? It is the most beautiful relationship one has. The relationship with your sons and daughters.

Your babies are life itself. At least they are for me.

[Drlee]

Of course the demographics show that we are headed for a mess. We are already in one. The largest single group of people joining the workforce are those over 65.

That said. This is a failing the conservatives built. They allowed industry to destroy pensions. They threaten to eliminate social security. They dismantle programs that were designed to help people with children stay in the workplace. They do not support a living wage so that one, average wage earner can support his wife as she decides to have children. This is what we get.

This is not about selfishness. It is about economics. The average worker in the US cannot afford a one bedroom apartment in his town on his salary. Day care costs nearly a full time salary for low wage workers. The popes enemies in this reguard are not Fido and Kitty. It is the systemic attempt to make having children more and more difficult by depressing wages and just generally making it too hard.

And I might add Francis, perhaps if you let your priests get married we would have some more good Catholics and a lot less naughtiness behind that altar. Maybe you could reopen the church day care centers and early childhood education programs. But that would cost money. Right?

No human being has the obligation to procreate. I wish more of them did, but if we want people to have kids we have to make it economically feasible to do it.

Now I get that some women work while having kids but I ask in all seriousness, "is this the best thing to do"? Play along.

The median American worker earns $20.20 an hour with women earning less. So of mom decides to stay home and raise children they have to live on $40K per year and pay for a couple of kids. Good luck with that. The cheapest two bedroom dive apartment I could find on Craigslist in Tucson runs $900 a month plus utilities. So let's call housing cost $1200.00 a month including utilities. This from an after tax income of about $30K per year if they are lucky. Then there is the $600 per month for health care. The numbers simply do not work. You cannot raise a child with any security or plan for the future on $40K per year.

But wifey can go back to work. And she adds another $30K pretax to the kitty. But wait. A recent survey shows that she will pay on average $300 per week per kid for daycare. That is more than she earns after taxes. Even at half that rate she is not going to make enough to matter.

So kids are for the well off. I get that a bunch of poor people are doing it by getting food stamps and working several jobs but if society thinks so little of the worker's skills that they are not willing to pay for them then fuckit. Why bother.

If the oligarchs who command government in the US want more kids, eventually they will pay for them. Until then?

I generally like Pope Francis but he is completely tone deaf on this one.

[Unthinking Majority]

Of course the demographics show that we are headed for a mess. We are already in one. The largest single group of people joining the workforce are those over 65.

That said. This is a failing the conservatives built. They allowed industry to destroy pensions. They threaten to eliminate social security. They dismantle programs that were designed to help people with children stay in the workplace. They do not support a living wage so that one, average wage earner can support his wife as she decides to have children. This is what we get.

This is not about selfishness. It is about economics. The average worker in the US cannot afford a one bedroom apartment in his town on his salary. Day care costs nearly a full time salary for low wage workers. The popes enemies in this reguard are not Fido and Kitty. It is the systemic attempt to make having children more and more difficult by depressing wages and just generally making it too hard.

Neoliberalism is definitely part of the problem, and the Democrats and other liberal mainstream parties are almost as guilty as conservatives.

I think the main factors are:

1. Vast improvements in birth control technology since the 1960's.
2. Feminism since the 1960's vastly increasing the % of women who want careers + having more rights in the bedroom.
3. Changing laws and social norms about abortion.
4. Increasing cost of living since 80's.

[Atulya Mishra]

I fundamentally disagree. Not everyone should be having kids.

[Rancid]

I fundamentally disagree. Not everyone should be having kids.

Who should and who shouldn't have kids?

Further, should we force people to have kids at gun point?

[late]

This is a global problem, and one I've talked about before.

While it will be more expensive than it used to be, there is also a simple solution.

[Rancid]

oh shit.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/23/health/p ... index.html

[Godstud]

See , @Rancid? The Pope wants to keep you dumb!

[Rancid]

See , @Rancid? The Pope wants to keep you dumb!

Fun fact.

Jehovas Witnesses intentionally target poor and uneducated people, as its easier to get them to follow you.

Moron's go after the high end of the market, they tend to try and recruit wealthy people.

Basically, Jehovas are going for the volume play, and Mormon's go after high margins.