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Political issues in the People's Republic of China.

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By Zenno
#14082233
The Chinese dissident and literary author Liao Yiwu repeated several times in German the sentence “this empire must disintegrate” (dieses Imperium muss auseinanderbrechen) in his Chinese speech thanking the association of the German book trade for granting him their annual peace price. His speech was applauded by numerous political leader’s including the German president and cultural workers including Biermann, Walraff and others, present in the audience. In China, the mere mention of his name is a crime.

He further explained that “a country which massacres its children must disintegrate, that is in accordance with Chinese tradition”. This is a reference to the Tiananmen massacre in which thousands of unarmed civilians including many minors were massacred by the tanks of the Chinese army in Beijing. By the reference to the Chinese tradition, he refers to the idea of the “mandate of heaven” that legitimizes the rule of the virtuous ruler since the times of the Duke of Zhou extolled by Confucius. Massacring innocent children by the state represents a loss of virtue and the legitimacy to rule. Hence, such a regime must be toppled. He spent four years in a Chinese prison for writing a poem.

Here is an article in German:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/verleihung-des-friedenspreises-china-zerbrich-11925607.html
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By Potemkin
#14082271
The Chinese government regards Liao Yiwu as a traitor, and it looks like they were right about him.
#14085342
By the reference to the Chinese tradition, he refers to the idea of the “mandate of heaven” that legitimizes the rule of the virtuous ruler since the times of the Duke of Zhou extolled by Confucius.


Since the times of brutal feudalism and enforced serfdom? :lol:
By Zenno
#14085493
Igor Antunov wrote:Since the times of brutal feudalism and enforced serfdom? :lol:


It is in times of brutal feudalism that virtue is of greatest need.

Potemkin wrote:The Chinese government regards Liao Yiwu as a traitor, and it looks like they were right about him.


Unless you consider the butchers of children to be legitimate rulers, it is the other way around: the current rulers are the traitors, traitors of the virtuous traditions in China.
Last edited by Siberian Fox on 22 Oct 2012 11:30, edited 1 time in total. Reason: Back-to-back posts merged.
By Zenno
#14085522
Igor Antunov wrote:Yet on their watch China's population grew to levels unheard of before or since. There are more children living today than have lived in the past.


China has always been a very densely populated country. Marco Polo and other European travelers were surprised by the size of Chinese cities. The growth of population in modern times is a global phenomenon; it has nothing to do with China. Besides, Communist policies during the 50s and 60s resulted in 30 million Chinese starving to death. Even in Chinese history, which has seen its fair share of horrors and catastrophes, that is not exactly a brilliant feat. Anyways, the size of the population is more of a liability than an asset.
#14085537
And today 8 million Indian children die from malnutrition every single year. This thread should be titled 'India. Disintegrate!' because your are holding up decades old examples of China while ignoring todays examples right next door. And starvation was commonplace in the imperial days anyway. In regards to India, I suppose you will argue that the days of the mughals or the british raj were more serene times.
By Zenno
#14085547
China is clearly very different from India. China's success in the last 15 years is entirely due to a technological and industrial development based on the Japanese and Korean models. Do we forgive the tyrant’s brutality because he has adopted a successful industrial policy? The World will. No doubt about that. Yet, it is the role of civil society and the man of letters to point to immorality. That is important for the sake of the Chinese people and for the sake of the rest of us. Justice cannot prevail if China has to continue repression in the occupied territories and in the homeland. This empire must disintegrate! Down with the tyrants!
#14085688
Does this author really understand what the mandate of heaven is? I was sure that the mandate only shifts when the rebellion is already happening and toppling of the offending government is imminent, that's when you are supposed to come out and say, "see, it is evident that the mandate of heaven in now on the rebels!"

Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense.
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By Potemkin
#14085695
Precisely. If the current Chinese government does not have the Mandate of Heaven, then who does? The American Heritage Foundation? German bankers? Liao Yiwu? :eh:
#14085988
I was under the impression that the Mandate of Heaven ended and became irrelevant with the dissolution of the Qing Dynasty following the Xinhai Revolution? Wasn't there some backlash from the ethnic Han about the minority Manchu keeping the masses in ignorance? The revulsion for the formerly royal Manchu elite took root long before Communism and seemed to be a prominent theme within Chinese republicanism. I was never too up on my Chinese history, but it doesn't make sense for the Kuomintang to keep it in place beyond tradition as a culture more, and it makes less sense for Mao to dignify it. Then again, it doesn't make much sense for an oligarchic capitalist bureaucracy to romanticize Maoism either.
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By Potemkin
#14085989
I was under the impression that the Mandate of Heaven ended and became irrelevant with the dissolution of the Qing Dynasty following the Xinhai Revolution? I was never too up on my Chinese history, but it doesn't make sense for the Kuomintang to keep it in place beyond tradition as a culture more, and it makes less sense for Mao to dignify it.

The concept of the Mandate of Heaven has no legal force (but then again, when did it ever?), but it is still a strong cultural tradition in China. It is, if you like, part of the Chinese political unconscious. Chinese governments ignore it at their peril.

Then again, it doesn't make much sense for an oligarchic capitalist bureaucracy to romanticize Maoism either.

It doesn't make much sense for oligarchic Western capitalists to romanticise a 1st century Jewish proto-communist either, but there you go. ;)
By Zenno
#14086017
Actually, I don't know if the author uses the term mandate of heaven. In the article I linked, there was just talk about "Chinese traditions." I interpreted this as referring to the mandate of heaven.

Rei, the idea of mandate of heaven is always valid. It doesn't matter whether we are in the process of toppling a regime of whether we succeeded. It is just the narrative, the justification of the events. It is true that it only becomes official after the regime is toppled, but that doesn’t prevent the revolution from using the concept to justify its cause.

While the Communists tried to do away with most traditions, it is accepted among sinologists since about the 70s that, at heart, every leading elite in China since the last 2,000 years is basically Confucian. This becomes even more apparent today as the government tries to revive Chinese traditions in order to fill an moral void that could have negative social consequences.

Here is an article by the BBC correspondent Carrie Gracie in Beijing about the Duke of Zhou as the paragon of the virtuous leader extolled by Confucius. I highligted a few parts for the furtive reader.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19821144

Three thousand years ago, the Duke of Zhou set China a glowing example. A paragon of virtue, he spelled out a philosophy of a ruler in harmony with heaven that inspired Confucius, and came to fill the ideological vacuum left behind by Chairman Mao.
"He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star which keeps its place and all the stars turn towards it," wrote Confucius 2,500 years ago.
As he wrote these words, he will have had in his mind's eye the Duke of Zhou, probably the first real person to step over the threshold of myth into Chinese history.
"Confucius, in his own words, said: 'Oh, in politics I follow the Duke of Zhou'," says archaeologist Wang Tao.
"I'm sure he very much tried to restore the so-called golden age, or golden rule of Zhou dynasty, particularly in the rule under the Duke of Zhou."
In the 5th Century BC, Europe had Socrates and China had just had Confucius. Both philosophers thought hard about ethics, and the right relationship between the individual and the state.
We often think of Confucius as being the foundation stone of Chinese political philosophy, and so do most Chinese. But he was channelling a world view which had been crystallising over centuries.
"Everybody including Confucius himself always said: 'The Duke of Zhou is my hero, he really set up the foundation, particularly the cultural foundation of China,'" says Tao.
We don't actually know much about the Duke of Zhou.
He's more a personality cult than a person. But the seed of the cult lies in a real historical figure and real events. The duke helped his brother sweep away a corrupt ruler and found the Zhou dynasty in the 11th Century BC.
Already north China had cities, public works and coinage. There was no empire as yet, but even ruling a kingdom required skill and subtlety.
After his brother died, the Duke of Zhou acted as a dutiful regent, and when his nephew came of age, he handed over power.
"He has become as it were everybody's favourite uncle. Because in his noble manner of handing power over - rightfully - to his nephew, he has become a paragon of goodness throughout China's history," says Frances Wood, curator of the British Library's Chinese collection.
Mostly in Chinese history everyone seems to be behaving badly. Regent uncles, dowager empresses, concubines, brothers… all end up doing the wrong thing. Skim read the dynastic ups and downs of imperial China and it is a terrifying bloodbath of unexplained deaths, heads severed, babies strangled, siblings thrown down wells, kings poisoned, whole families executed or challengers torn limb from limb. But not the Duke of Zhou.
That is what makes him such a big favourite with Confucians. At the heart of their political philosophy, and far more important than rules or contracts, is sincerity.
"In China, that's a very decent thing to do, to hold on to your promise," says historian Xun Zhou of Hong Kong University.
"It's a mandate of heaven that his nephew became the king, and he did that."
The mandate of heaven is the Duke of Zhou's big idea. The ruler governs by virtuous example, which spreads virtue throughout the land, and in turn demonstrates his harmony with the divine.
But there's a get-out clause for rebels. If the king fails to rule virtuously, harmony is ruined and can only be restored by removal of the king.

"One of the great things about Chinese history is the way that people become godlike - that gods and people are slightly interchangeable, and people become slightly superhuman. I think the Duke of Zhou is superhumanly good," says Frances Wood.
The concept of the mandate of heaven contains within it the idea that if a ruler is good, heaven will be pleased and all will go well, Wood says. If a ruler is bad, heaven will show its displeasure through earthquakes and all sorts of natural disasters, and the ruler will be overthrown.
The Duke of Zhou is also credited with the creation of imperial rituals - a process reinforced by Confucius, who helped make China a nation of ritual. These rituals, many of which persist today, often express someone's position in society, or within the family.
"Confucianism is particularly strong on [ideas such as] that a son must obey his father, a wife must obey her husband," says Wood.
"The ritual within the family, the pecking order, all of those things are established by ritual."
Trumping all the other Confucian duties is the duty of the living to the dead. The ancestor is at the very top of the family hierarchy.
"Ancestral worship in China is so important, because the Chinese don't have any particular religion, they don't believe in God," Wang Tao explains.
"But they all worship ancestors. If you want to establish yourself in a society, you have to have a good ancestor. And you also have to have a good relationship to that ancestor."
The Duke of Zhou is the good ancestor par excellence. And he looked back himself even further, to China's legendary ancestors, Tao says, "using that to form the nation or the culture of China".
But in 1949, a revolution occurred. A political culture built around venerating ancestors and learning lessons from their perfect rule was turned on its head.
"Political power comes out of the barrel of a gun," said Mao. You could try teaching those who disagreed with you, but if that failed you should destroy them.
For a century, China had been haemorrhaging territory to Western and Japanese colonialists. For the first time in history, a self-consciously mighty civilisation felt poor and backward.
To many Chinese, their ancient philosophy seemed like part of the problem. And when the communists took power in 1949, Confucius and the Duke of Zhou were thrown off their pedestals.
"The Chinese past was the enemy! It was held responsible," says Peter Bol of Harvard University.
"If China had once been the great power in the world, if it had once been the source of models for the rest of east Asia, the Chinese past was used to explain why it no longer was, and it had to be destroyed."
Mao's Cultural Revolution set out to destroy the Four Olds - Old Customs, Old Culture, Old Habits, and Old Ideas.
In 1966, 11 million Red Guards, Mao's young shock troops, flooded Beijing and destroyed thousands of relics and temples - all of China's history that they could find.
But when Chairman Mao died 10 years later, the Cultural Revolution and the assault on history died with him. It was time for China to go back to the beginning.
"After the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese government, people, desperately want a new ideology, because Mao's philosophy or thought has caused so much damage to the country, to the people. So Confucianism came in conveniently, to fill the gap," says Wang Tao.
"And the Duke of Zhou has also regained his popularity, and a lot of people now talk about the Duke of Zhou, the ancestral worship, or the old order cosmos mandate of heaven, in much more favourable way now. And I think it does reflect the change of the society."
The reason why these simple truths have survived down the millennia is that they have helped generation after generation of Chinese to understand the nature and the culture that formed them, and not to lose their heads, even when confronted by immense social change and almost overwhelming choice.
So the Duke of Zhou and Confucius are back on their pedestals. Politically fashionable again.
Barely a month goes by without the Chinese government opening a Confucius Institute somewhere in the world, to teach language and culture and project soft power. Already there are nearly 1,000 of them in more than 100 countries.
The new generation of leaders taking over next month wants to honour all their ancestors, communist and Confucian.
So just a stone's throw from party headquarters, the statue of the ancient philosopher gazes out serenely. And somewhere in the spirit world, the Duke of Zhou must be smiling.
#14086043
Zenno wrote:Rei, the idea of mandate of heaven is always valid. It doesn't matter whether we are in the process of toppling a regime of whether we succeeded. It is just the narrative, the justification of the events. It is true that it only becomes official after the regime is toppled, but that doesn’t prevent the revolution from using the concept to justify its cause.

Okay, but where are the rebels? How he be talking about the Mandate before he even has a rebel force? It's one thing to say that they are illegitimate, a different thing to say that they've lost the Mandate even though they are clearly sitting there governing.
By Zenno
#14086171
Rei Murasame wrote:And how do they know that they have the mandate? This is completely circular.


Yes, it is circular, like most things in life. They think that the mandate is not longer with the tyrant, but the loss of mandate will only be official when enough people think that way.
By Andropov
#14086216
Zenno wrote:Unless you consider the butchers of children to be legitimate rulers, it is the other way around: the current rulers are the traitors, traitors of the virtuous traditions in China.


Let's look at things objectively: after the massacre of idealistic youth in Tienanmen, China, under an authoritarian and mobilizing regime has enjoyed unprecedented growth and increase in quality of life for the vast majority of the population. After the coming to power of one of those idealistic youth in the Soviet Union, the country fell apart, living standards have dropped and still have not recovered, crime and poverty has skyrocketed, and the country loses a million people a year to alcoholism, drug abuse, violence, and starvation. Which one of these is best is self-evident to anyone but the mentally retarded.
By Zenno
#14086342
Andropov wrote:Let's look at things objectively: after the massacre of idealistic youth in Tienanmen, China, under an authoritarian and mobilizing regime has enjoyed unprecedented growth and increase in quality of life for the vast majority of the population. After the coming to power of one of those idealistic youth in the Soviet Union, the country fell apart, living standards have dropped and still have not recovered, crime and poverty has skyrocketed, and the country loses a million people a year to alcoholism, drug abuse, violence, and starvation. Which one of these is best is self-evident to anyone but the mentally retarded.


What are you talking about? Comparing apples with pears isn’t very objective either. Are you saying the Soviets would be better off economically if they had massacred innocent youths? Or that the Tiananmen massacre was a condition for economic development? Saying that the World will all too willingly ignore the massacre of the innocent and repression if the business is good is not necessary because that is de facto the situation we are in. Yet, having to sweep the massacre and ongoing repression under the carpet is hardly a recipe for a harmonious social development in the future. And what if the tyrants fail to deliver the goods? What if an economic downturn and increasing social disparities accompanied by the gravy train of corrupt party officials bring the pot to boiling point?
By Andropov
#14086354
I am saying authoritarian nationalist (meaning, first and foremost acting in the interests of the nation) rule is better than liberal "democracy" where the country disintegrates, living standards drop, civil war wreaks havoc, killing thousands to hundreds of thousands, and the nation's wealth is robbed by a small minority, as was the case in all transitions from large, multi-national "totalitarian communist" countries to liberalism (USSR, Yugoslavia). If China did not put an end to the 1989 protests with force, the chance of them toppling the regime would have been greater and the disasters following such an event very possible indeed.
Last edited by Andropov on 20 Oct 2012 19:43, edited 1 time in total.

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