China's PM Wen Jiabao stashed away $2.7bn - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Political issues in the People's Republic of China.

Moderator: PoFo Asia & Australasia Mods

Forum rules: No one-line posts please. This is an international political discussion forum moderated in English, so please post in English only. Thank you.
#14090844
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20091675

The New York Times says access to its website is being blocked inside China after it published an investigation into wealth accumulated by relatives of Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao.

In its report, the paper said Mr Wen's family members "have controlled assets worth at least $2.7bn (£1.7bn)".

Holdings included property, insurance and construction firms, it said.

Both the NYT's Chinese and English sites are blocked, as are references to the report on micro-blogging sites.

"Many relatives of Wen Jiabao, including his son, daughter, younger brother and brother-in-law, have become extraordinarily wealthy during his leadership," the newspaper wrote in a lengthy report.

"In many cases, the names of the relatives have been hidden behind layers of partnerships and investment vehicles involving friends, work colleagues and business partners."

The family's investments reportedly spanned several sectors. The newspaper cited one holding as Ping An, an insurance company which it said had benefited from reforms enacted in 2004 by a state body over which Mr Wen had oversight.

Often referred to as "Grandpa Wen" by state media, the premier is one of the few senior Chinese politicians with the popular touch, usually the first to appear at the side of victims of earthquakes or other disasters as a kind of consoler-in-chief. But there have long been rumours that his decade in the job has brought more tangible benefits to his immediate family, and now the New York Times has put a figure on it.

The more than $2.7bn in controlled assets reported by the newspaper are held not by the Chinese premier himself, but by his wife, mother, siblings, children, and their in-laws. The figure though may not come as much of a shock to Mr Wen. A WikiLeaks cable dated 2007 quoted a source as saying the premier was "disgusted" by his family's activities.

But whether he disapproves or not, the investigation shows that much of the wealth has been accumulated in areas of the economy over which he has direct authority. Mr Wen is not the only senior leader over whom that kind of suspicion lingers, but given his position, his public standing and his own championing of the anti-corruption cause, the Times report will be seen by the authorities here as highly sensitive and potentially damaging.

Bloomberg's website is still being blocked after it published, back in June, a similar expose of the family wealth of the man tipped to be China's next leader, Xi Jinping. It may be a while before readers in China get to see the New York Times online again.

It said that partnerships controlled by Mr Wen's relatives, along with their friends and colleagues, had bought into the firm before its IPO, or stock market flotation, in 2004, and held as much as $2.2bn in the company in 2007.

The newspaper said both the Chinese government and Mr Wen's relatives declined to comment on the investigation, which was based on corporate records from 1992-2012.

No holdings were found in Mr Wen's name, it said, nor was it possible "to determine from the documents whether he recused himself from any decisions that might have affected his relatives' holdings, or whether they received preferential treatment on investments".

China is sensitive about reports on its leaders, particularly when it comes to their wealth.

A growing wealth gap is causing public discontent, as are the frequent corruption scandals involving government officials.

When, in June 2012, a Bloomberg investigative report examined the finances of the relatives of president-in-waiting Xi Jinping, the company's website was blocked in China - even though the report said there was no indication of wrongdoing by him or his family.

Mr Wen has been the Chinese premier for almost 10 years. He is due to step down in a power transition that begins on 8 November.

He is seen as a popular figure with the common touch, and is portrayed in state media as a leader with great concern for the lives of ordinary people.

A spokeswoman for New York Times said she hoped that full access to the websites would be "restored shortly" in China.

BBC World News was also blocked when a correspondent was asked about the story during a report.

On China's Twitter-like weibo platforms, keywords such as Wen Jiabao and the New York Times are blocked. Mr Wen's name, like most other Chinese leaders, has always been a screened keyword.

Some netizens did manage to post the article despite heavy and rapid censorship. A Sina Weibo user tweeted about the article from Kawagoe city in Japan, but his post was removed after 11 minutes.

"The Twist Your Waist Times says the best actor has $2.7bn of assets. I just wonder how will he spend it?" asked a Tencent Weibo user registered in the British West Indies territory of the Turks and Caicos Islands.

"Twist your waist" in Chinese characters sounds like New York when spoken, while "best actor" refers to Mr Wen, who critics say only pretends to be a people-first leader.


Seems like the Chinese leadership is on a level with Third World tyrants when it comes to corruption.

[Mod note: spelling of 'China's' corrected in title. Please make sure to use correct spelling in titles especially]
#14090851
I know it's wrong, but I feel vindicated by this kind of news. I am completely convinced the Chinese leadership is as corrupt, mendacious and incompetent as the next ruling class. As a dictatorship, however, they have the good sense (from their point of view) of hiding it!

I'd love to know what other smoldering piles of fetid detritus the Chinese Communist Party is hiding under the rug..
#14090859
Ombrageux wrote:I'd love to know what other smoldering piles of fetid detritus the Chinese Communist Party is hiding under the rug..


I can see Westerners rubbing their hands about the imminent downfall of the Chinese empire. Don't get up your hopes. It won't be that easy. The Chinese empire isn't about to collapse any time soon. On the contrary, the West, which is struggling with its own internal contradiction, may collapse first.

In many ways the Chinese system can deal with problems more efficiently than we can - corruption or not. Transparency is an important ingredient in modern democracies, but it is no guarantee that we will in the end be more effective in dealing with future problems.

On the technological front, the Far East is outdoing us in most fields. Don't forget that Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Singapore aren't exactly squeaky clean democracies either. Their system is built on nepotism just like the Chinese system. If we forget the political divide, Japan and Korea share a lot with China. And it will be leadership in technology that will determine future success more than anything.
#14090873
Allegations of great wealth being made by the families of Chinese political leaders are nothing new. There was also the Bo Xilai case, as well as the Bloomberg story on Xi Jinping's relatives' wealth a few months ago.

Two things worth bearing in mind, however:

(1) Obviously, in most cases - including Wen's - it refers not to Wen personally, or even his immediate family (wife and offspring have to declare property), but to members of his extended family. Furthermore, it is unclear to what extent this is corruption. Obviously, they are very unlikely to have enjoyed near as much success without Wen's high political position, but on the other hand it's not as if this money was being stolen from the treasury as happens in true banana republics.

What does however massively distinguish it from the sort of corruption prevalent in the West is that information on it is censored. This is a massive demerit to China, but also a necessary part of the system that tries to ensure regime survival.

(2) Mr. Wen is known as a pro-Western liberal on leftist Chinese blogs. This demonstrates the danger of placing liberals in power, and hopefully China will learn lessons in this regard.

Rei wrote:Oh Igor Antunov! Where are you? Looks like the most corrupt place in Asia might indeed be China if this keeps up?


Percentage of respondents who said they or their family paid a bribe in the past 12 months:

Japan - 9%
China - 9%

Not remarkably corrupt, especially when one considers that China is still far behind Japan economically. Not to mention far cleaner than any number of other Asian countries such as the Philippines, Vietnam, all of SE Asia pretty much for that matter, all of South Asia, ...

I can understand why you dislike China and so desperately want it to fail, given that it will eventually squash Japan like the pestering bug it is. But that won't make realities go away.
#14090879
stalker wrote:Percentage of respondents who said they or their family paid a bribe in the past 12 months[/url]:

Japan - 9%
China - 9%


That just shows you how useless these surveys are. In over 15 years, I haven’t been asked to pay a single bribe in Japan. None of my acquaintances reported having to pay a bribe either.

I only remember one case, in which I managed a construction site in a rural area, when our Japanese engineer was approached by a Yakuza thug who asked us for protection money for the building site. We just chased him away. But even that case doesn't really qualify as what is usually known as corruption.

There is cronyism in Japan, but it seldom takes the form of having to pay bribes as in the Third World. I think bribes are a lot more common in China.

According to the rating of Transparency International of the least corrupt countries, Japan occupies place 14 together with Germany, both before the UK (16). China is on place 75 behind Brazil and Tunisia (73) but before Greece (80)
#14090905
stalker wrote:Percentage of respondents who said they or their family paid a bribe in the past 12 months:
A figure taken from a survey of international businessmen and the heads of gigantic corporations.

The wheels are pre-greased in China for them. No Chinese bureaucrat will do anything to drive off foreign investment.

For people who aren't such economic titans, like your average Chinese citizen, the figure is probably far more miserable.
#14091143
stalker wrote:Those figures refer to a sample of random citizens. Please study the Global Corruption Barometer link.

My mistake. I thought you were referring to the Bribe Payer's Index.

In any case, I don't know much about Japan, but 9% seems ridiculously low for China.
#14091789
That figure is low. I've been living here for 5 years and have seen it all.

You want the doctor or nurse to do their job? Bribe them. My friends Grandfather is ex-PLA, and was in care for cancer treatmeant at Tianjin's PLA no. 464 hospital. Her mother had to pay the nurse and doctor extra money on top of their bill to make sure her grandfather would be looked after while the mother went home to sleep for a couple hours every day. Also, the "Gov't offical" and "Common" wings were night and day in both quality of service and quality of care.

You want to own a sandwich shop on the street? You pay bribes to the local officials in the form of "licenses". Now, this can be tricky because what this "license" gets you can vary. For example, another Chinese friend of mine owned a shop in Tianjin. If/when a high ranking government agent from either the local government or, heaven forbid, Beijing, came into town for a visit, the shop owners on the street had to pay for "additional licenses" or get their store signs ripped down by a group of thugs.

You want to start your own private school and deal with other schools to hire out teachers? Hope you brought the cash. The headmaster won't give you the time of day unless you're carrying a nice, hefty hong bao (red envelope) to "sweeten the deal".

These examples, and many more, are prevalent across the society. Whether you think its good or bad or simply "part of the culture" is immaterial--its simply how a lot of things are done around here and you either deal with it or go home--but it is what it is. Frankly, more than a few Chinese are starting to get fed up with the system and no mainland Chinese would deny that this is common practice on the mainland.
#14092439
2.7 billion? Hm, that's not that much in the grand scheme of things is it? :lol:

I like that Wen fellow, he smiles a lot. He is good for the public face of China. In that sense he's probably earnt his dough.
#14092463
stalker wrote:You rely on anecdotes, I rely on hard statistics.

Statistics are only as good as their methodology.

If all you interview is people in Beijing and Shanghai you're going to get a far different answer than if you accurately sampled both urban and rural, province by province.
#14092604
-His mother built a successful business from scratch
-His family started off dirt poor, and so did he.
-The study concerns his broader family
-none of this is secret or hidden from public view, never was; it's only a scandal in the eyes of reddit because the new york times is taking a swipe at another country's leadership, and china happens to be the favourite distraction during this upcoming US election, one where corruption/bribery is part of the institution itself (the lobby system).
Therefore what one calls corruption in china (punishable by death or life imprisonment) is considered normal politicial practice in much of the corporate run west.

"Look! Look! They have rich leaders too!" just doesn't cut it in this laughably lopsided climate we ourselves reside in, where a large business run by one man can dictate policy to an entire government. At least the chinese government dictates policy to the companies it owns and manhandles to carry out state policy. The proof is in the decaying infrastructure, it took 30 years for our local government to approve a train station upgrade, yet it takes 30 days to approve a new foreign run coal mine.
#14093228
Igor Antunov wrote:-His mother built a successful business from scratch
-His family started off dirt poor, and so did he.
-The study concerns his broader family
-none of this is secret or hidden from public view, never was; it's only a scandal in the eyes of reddit because the new york times is taking a swipe at another country's leadership, and china happens to be the favourite distraction during this upcoming US election, one where corruption/bribery is part of the institution itself (the lobby system).
Therefore what one calls corruption in china (punishable by death or life imprisonment) is considered normal politicial practice in much of the corporate run west.

"Look! Look! They have rich leaders too!" just doesn't cut it in this laughably lopsided climate we ourselves reside in, where a large business run by one man can dictate policy to an entire government. At least the chinese government dictates policy to the companies it owns and manhandles to carry out state policy. The proof is in the decaying infrastructure, it took 30 years for our local government to approve a train station upgrade, yet it takes 30 days to approve a new foreign run coal mine.


If it wasn't a secret or hidden from public view, then why the rapid and complete censorship of not only the story, but the NY Times itself and even Premier Wen's name from the Chinese internet?
#14093234
I will admit, Stalker and Igor, that I was being a bit cheeky in my first post in this topic, since it's quite rare to hear such a big story reported coming out of China, so it's like a whole new realm to criticise them in that has not existed before.

However, as cheeky as it was, it seems that actually the other posters have revealed a shocking amount of graft and censorship of the graft and so on, beyond what I had actually imagined was the case. So it's like I was half-joking at first but then actually it's like it's actually true. :eek:
Israel-Palestinian War 2023

Since the earliest evidence of burial starts after[…]

Well that's the thing.. he was wrong A paper, by[…]

What bill are you talking about?

https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/178385974554[…]