[Zenno]

Since 2011, more than 60 Tibetans have set themselves on fire in protest against Chinese repression in their country.

Since China has become a powerful economy, the West is turning a blind eye to human rights abuses in China and Tibet. What is the worth of human rights and democracy, if we are willing to sell them for a handful of Yuan?

Four Tibetans set themselves on fire

Dozens of ethnic Tibetans have set themselves on fire in protest at Chinese rule since 2011

At least four people set themselves on fire in ethnic Tibetan parts of China on Wednesday, a rights group and media reports say.

Three teenage monks set themselves alight in Aba county in Sichuan province, where many self-immolations have taken place in recent months.

One of the boys died and the other two were taken to hospital.

Later the same day a 23-year-old woman died after setting herself on fire in Qinghai province.

More than 60 Tibetans have set themselves on fire since early 2011, in what rights group say are acts of protest against Beijing's rule.

Beijing says Tibetans have religious freedom and accuses Tibet's exiled spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, of inciting the incidents - claims he rejects.

The incidents took place the day before China's Communist Party opened a congress in Beijing that will begin the process of transferring power to a new generation of leaders.

UN call
Continue reading the main story
The Tibet Divide

China says Tibet has always been part of its territory
Tibet had long periods of autonomy
China launched a military assault in 1950
Opposition to Chinese rule led to a bloody uprising in 1959
Tibet's spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, fled to India
Dalai Lama now advocates a "middle way" with Beijing, seeking autonomy but not independence
The Tibet issue: Two views
Inside Tibet
Dicki Chhoyang, a spokesperson for the Tibetan government in exile in India, told Agence-France Presse news agency that their sources were able to confirm the four cases, calling them a "cry for help".

The London-based Free Tibet group said that the three boys set themselves on fire outside their local police station.

It said it was the first documented case of a triple self-immolation.

The youngest, aged 15, died at the scene. The whereabouts of his two 16-year-old companions are unknown, a group spokesman said.

The woman was identified by Voice of America as 23-year-old Tamding Tso. She had a five-year-old son, reports said.

Radio Free Asia also reported a fifth self-immolation inside Tibet, citing an exiled monk who had spoken to people in the region, however this could not be confirmed.

Foreign media are banned from the region, making verifying the self-immolation cases difficult. Chinese state media have confirmed some but not all.

More than half of those who set themselves on fire are believed to have died.

Last week UN rights chief Navi Pillay called on China to address issues behind the series of self-immolations and to allow monitors and the media access to the region.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20247053

[GandalfTheGrey]

Its a bit sad, but I'm afraid the Tibetan's cause is completely hopeless. It will be a cold day in hell when China relinquish arguably the most strategically important area in the world.

[Zenno]

I don't see why it should be "the most strategically important region in the World." Of all possible conflict scenarios, a China/India conflict seems the least likely, while a China/US trade war seems almost inevitable.

As long as the occupation of Tibet continues, repression in China will continue. I don't think full independence for Tibet is realistic, nobody is demanding that anyways. Some real autonomy would however go a long way. As hopeless as it seems, in the long run there is no other solution. China will not be able to justify a regime of repression indefinitely.

[Igor Antunov]

Tibet is literally a 5km tall watchtower that overseas not just indias most populated regions but also much of central asia and it acts as an impassable bulwark. It is massively advantageous to posses it.

With the completion of the railway to Lhasa, a huge influx of ethnic han is expected over the coming decades. Lhasa will grow into a major city and hub and tibetans will become a minority. And this isn't as blatant as it sounds, in 1904 the british expedition into tibet expelled almost all the indigenous ethnic han from the region. They are merely returning to a part of china.

Then alleged supression will become mere policing. Therefore these immolations are a tragedy, nothing more.

[Zenno]

One evil doesn't justify another. Anyways, the crimes committed during the colonial age or the WWs cannot be a guiding rule for present day conduct.

Tibet certainly never was majoritarian Han. What happens now is nothing less than cultural genocide. The destruction of a people, while the World is looking on.

This is not just about Tibet, it is also about us. Are we going to sacrifice an entire people for an iPhone and some cheap consumer goods?

Turning a blind eye on repression in Tibet is also an indirect approval of terrorism. If the Tibetans were to resort to international terrorism, the whole World would scramble to try and find a solution.

Do we want a World in which only violence pays?

[Igor Antunov]

Good lawd how is a people moving around in their own country an evil? How is improving transportation and access to tibet a bad thing? It works both ways, it's not a one way railroad. Tibet is one of the least populated regions in the world, it's not like there isn't room or resources. Quite the contrary.

This is not just about Tibet, it is also about us. Are we going to sacrifice an entire people for an iPhone and some cheap consumer goods?

This is silly because the Tibetan people and culture are not going anywhere. They were absorbed into broader chinese culture long ago, and like the mongolians they won't go extinct, just another puzzle on the board that is chinese civilisation.

Question should be, what can tibetans contribute to the country? If they're going to play the downtrodden indigenous native card then so be it, but as we have seen in Australia, North America, etc it is a crappy card to play. Why not become an affluent and influential minority instead? We've see them rise up all over the world and play important roles. In China ethnic mongols play a big part, inner mongolia is prospering.

[Zenno]

Igor, the Tibetan people, just like every other people, have the right to self-determination. It is not up to you to decide what’s best for the Tibetans. To simply repeat the propaganda of the Chinese government certainly is pathetic.

Moreover, you obviously don’t know anything about Chinese or Tibetan cultures. Tibetan culture was NOT absorbed into Chinese culture long ago. Tibetan culture has always been a distinct culture. There have been cultural exchanges between the two, but never before has the one tried to eradicate the other.

The ethnic cleansing of Tibet will not work. It will destroy Tibetan culture as something the Tibetans can draw on for social coherence. Without that coherence an element of social instability will be perpetuated into all eternity not just in Tibet but in all the Chinese provinces the Tibetans are being deported to. There will be a heavy price to pay. Chinese rule, even in the homeland, can never be legitimate if Tibet is not free.

I’m amazed that you present the way the Anglo-Saxon settler treated the natives in the Americas and Australia as a model for the Chinese.

What on Earth do you mean by affluent and influential minority? Like the Kurds you mean? How are the Tibetans going to be influential if they are not even allowed to have a say in their own affairs? They are systematically being reduced to second-class citizens in their own hometowns and villages.

[fuser]

Igor, the Tibetan people, just like every other people, have the right to self-determination.

Even if we agree that there is such "right" it will open a can of worms too big to handle. Why west doesn't start looking in its own backyard first, there are too many separatist movement going in world, if you validate one, you will have to validate everyone and in this case we are only looking at a very bleak unstable future.

you obviously don’t know anything about Chinese or Tibetan cultures. Tibetan culture was NOT absorbed into Chinese culture long ago

Culture is not important here, since when does the basis of a Nation State is culture? In how many countries USA should be divided or India on the basis of culture?

The ethnic cleansing of Tibet will not work.

There's no such thing as ethnic cleansing going in Tibet, what won't work here is mindless sensationalism.

They are systematically being reduced to second-class citizens in their own hometowns and villages.

Wrong and another example of "sensationalism" and nothing else.

I read in today's newspaper that 4 Tibetans aged from 14-16 set selves afire but what was striking was their age. They were fucking kids and I highly doubt it was their individual decision, it is obvious that they were brain washed kids.

Beside I am still to see any graasroot level organization, revolts (even an armed resistance) made up of working class Tibetans. I don't give a flying fuck about self immolating "monks", although self immolation of kids (brain washed) is disturbing, the blame lies on the Tibetan Independence movement led by Dalai lama and supported by self serving certain western groups.

Finally I doubt that these numbers are true as they are coming from sources that have every reason in world to inflate it.

[Igor Antunov]

There is no ethnic cleansing of Tibetans going on. Quite the contrary; ethnic Tibetan population has grown significantly since the fifties. And if you consider their enhanced rights over the han majority, they are certainly not second class citizerns. It is in fact the han that are being treated like 2nd class citizens with no higher education selective rewards (all minorities get prefferential treatment in education) and with the one child policy in place.

[Zenno]

Fuser, so you take everything the Chinese government tells you at face value. That completely discredits everything you say. Why won't the Chinese let any outside observers into Tibet if things are as rosy as you say?

Point is you don't know a thing, you just want to believe that the butchers of Tiananmen square are right.

That says it all.

You try to set yourself on fire, then you can tell us if you do that out of pure sensationalism. Self-immolation or suicide is an age-old method of protest in the Far East that is to shame ones opponent. Trouble is you people have no shame.

Igor, where do you get that nonsense?

[fuser]

Fuser, so you take everything the Chinese government tells you at face value.

Strawman. You made a claim regarding ethnic cleansing and being relegated to second class status, the burden is on you to prove those nonsensical claims. But I like your approach if you don't agree with me you are a lackey of Chinese government, that way you are free from producing any serious argument.

If you don't agree with me, you worship Satan.

[quote][Point is you don't know a thing, you just want to believe that the butchers of Tiananmen square are right.
/quote]

This is you screaming that I have nothing to offer but sheer sensationalism.

[Zenno]

Even if we agree that there is such "right" it will open a can of worms too big to handle. Why west doesn't start looking in its own backyard first, there are too many separatist movement going in world, if you validate one, you will have to validate everyone and in this case we are only looking at a very bleak unstable future.

According to you, the aspirations of the Tibetan people must be repressed so as to prevent, for example, the Scottish from demanding independence. Don't you every use your head before pushing the send button?

There is nothing to prove. The evidence about repression in Tibet is plain for all. That you are ignorant doesn't mean everybody is.

I'm still waiting for your self-immolation to tell me all about just how sensationalist that is.

There is nothing so despicable in the whole wide World than pampered brats who never lacked anything passing arrogant judgments about the very real suffering of people who are a lot less privileged.

[fuser]

According to you, the aspirations of the Tibetan people must be repressed so as to prevent, for example, the Scottish from demanding independence

Strawman. Try harder.

There is nothing to prove. The evidence about repression in Tibet is plain for all.

No its not plain and your refusal to provide one single piece of evidence supporting your totally bullshit and nonsense claim speaks volume in itself.

I'm still waiting for your self-immolation to tell me all about just how sensationalist that is

Irrelevant. Try to post something related to your argument.

There is nothing so despicable in the whole wide World than pampered brats who never lacked anything

So, now I am a pampered brat who never lacked anything. you have a magical crystal ball too.

passing arrogant judgments about the very real suffering of people who are a lot less privileged.

compared to where I live average Tibetans living standard is much higher. So, even this point (ad hominem) of yours is not valid. Seriously, try harder and try to present some real argument supporting your position instead of ad hominems.

[Zenno]

Where do you live and what do you know about average Tibetans?

[fuser]

India, in a city which have good number of "Tibetan Refugees".

And to your second question I know at least that there is no ethnic cleansing going in Tibet neither they are being relegated to second class citizens.

[Verv]

Even if the Tibetans will not go extinct, they will certainly go the way of the Manchurians...

That is to say: their language very well could go extinct within the next 100-200 years and the values and aspects which distinguished them as a culture will disappear unless there is, say, autonomy and respect granted for their language and culture.

The second the schools do not teach in that language, it really has a large risk of it disappearing unless outside of the schools the overwhelming majority of folks insist on doing business in it...

And once a language goes it is a very difficult thing to ever exist meaningfully as that. Language is the consciousness of a people... Once their primary source of entertainment, literature, etc. is the same as the rest of China then they, too, will become suddenly become one with so much that is the rest of China.

[Zenno]

fuser, you do obviously enjoy a number of privileges people in Tibet don't. You seem to spend a lot of time in this forum. People in Tibet have no means of expressing themselves freely.

Let us return to the facts:
- the occupation of Tibet is unlawful
- the resistance of the Tibetan people against the occupation is legitimate
- self-immolation is the ultimate form of protest against repression

If you do not accept the above, then there is no point continuing the conversation.

As an aside:
According to your reasoning Tibet must not have independence because it would create a precedent for others. To point to the fact that the Scottish are free to ask for independence is no strawman argument. On the contrary, if the Scottish have that freedom then rightfully, other people should have too. Tibet was never part of India, there is not precedent there.

Your rudeness is no substitute for argument. There is no point talking to you if you cannot understand simple facts.

Your slander of the resistance of the Tibetan people such as self-immolation as "sensationalism" is not irrelevant, it goes to the core of your lack of argument.

From past experience I know that it is difficult to talk to you because you seem concentrate on mechanically contradicting short word strings without taking into consideration context. That is a waste of time.

[fuser]

fuser, you do obviously enjoy a number of privileges people in Tibet don't. You seem to spend a lot of time in this forum. People in Tibet have no means of expressing themselves freely.

Now you are not even trying to back up your utter nonsense claims, and you don't fucking know me, so don't compare my personal life with any group of people. And even if you did know me, this has no relation with the topic at all, stick to the topic and not my persona.

Then, there is much in life than "freedom of speech". Bihar (where I live ) has gdp per capita of around $120 while Tibet's is $2558.

Let us return to the facts:

Just because you termed them facts, it doesn't make them well established fact.

the occupation of Tibet is unlawful

There is no "Occupation", Tibet is a part of China.

the resistance of the Tibetan people against the occupation is legitimate

Tibetan resistance is led by a selected group (for self serving purposes)of people who don't represent the will of Tibetan people.

self-immolation is the ultimate form of protest against repression

No, it is not and how the fuck above point is not an opinion but a fact?

According to your reasoning Tibet must not have independence because it would create a precedent for others.

No, my argument foremost was that it could create precedent for any separatist movement (whether valid/legitimate or not), just because they have a separatist movement is no precedent for independence.

Your rudeness is no substitute for argument. There is no point talking to you if you cannot understand simple facts.

Actually it is well established that ad hominems are no substitute for an argument which is exactly what are you doing and I am still liking your modus operandi "Whatever I say is undeniable fact".

Where is one single shred of evidence in support of these facts, as now that I have asked for these evidence a third time?

Your slander of the resistance of the Tibetan people such as self-immolation as "sensationalism"

Wrong. I called your "reporting" of these events as sensationalism.

From past experience I know that it is difficult to talk to you because you seem concentrate on mechanically contradicting short word strings without taking into consideration context. That is a waste of time.

Then, why are you wasting your time? Instead of whining you could have just stopped.

But yet here we are with another of zenno's post containing two ad homs and absolutely zero arguments supporting his baseless bullshit stupid sensationalist claims that Tibetan people are being ethnically cleansed and relegated to second class citizens.

[Zenno]

Well, there is no point arguing with that level of rudeness.

At least you don't contend the fact that Tibet is unlawfully occupied.

And that is the bottom line.

As to wasting my time, it won't happen again.

plonk

[fuser]

Not agreeing with zenno = rudeness.

And you are so desperate for the last post that you once again wasted your time by doing exactly the same thing which according to you was wastage of time.

So, I guess you won't be providing any evidence (and evade it again for fourth time) for your "false" claims of ethnic cleansing of Tibetan people or them being relegated to second class citizens.