[colliric]

This is something I will never understand about Mainlanders...

Why do they consider one of history's most infamous tyrants, who is commonly known as "The Dragon Emperor" in the west, a Hero? Jing Ke was the real hero and everyone else seems to know that.

I mean amoungst other murderous atrocities(which he committed alot of the time against Children in particular) he murdered his infant Half-brothers by putting them in sacks and having the sacks smashed into the ground.

Is it the usual CCP propoganda censorship(what Orwell described in 1984 as "the erasing of history")?

Lol....

[Beren]

Maybe because he was the first emperor of a unified China, so thus quasi-founder of China?

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

Every ruler of every empire in the ancient world presided over massacres and killings, none of which detract from their various accomplishments to civilization.

[ThirdTerm]

Qin Shi Huang, the first Emperor of China, is best known for the Terracotta Army which was meant to protect the emperor in his afterlife. The Terracotta Army consists of more than 8,000 soldiers, 130 chariots with 520 horses and 150 cavalry horses. His mausoleum is the sign of a great civilisation with possible Indo-European roots. The invention of the war chariot is attributed to the Sintashta culture (2,800-2,600 BCE), by which Qin Shi Huang conquered the entire country. Qin Shi Huang was probably of Turkic ethnicity similar to Uyghur Muslims as he had light to blue eyes. Uyghurs have 60 per cent European ancestry and 40 per cent East Asian ancestry, formed by admixture between Tocharians from the west and Orkhon Uyghurs from the east in the 8th century AD.


Qin Chinese war chariot, Warring States Period, Ancient China

The Sintashta culture emerged from the interaction of two antecedent cultures. Its immediate predecessor in the Ural-Tobol steppe was the Poltavka culture, an offshoot of the cattle-herding Yamnaya horizon that moved east into the region between 2800 and 2600 BCE. Several Sintashta towns were built over older Poltovka settlements or close to Poltovka cemeteries, and Poltovka motifs are common on Sintashta pottery. Sintashta material culture also shows the influence of the late Abashevo culture, a collection of settlements in the forest steppe zone north of the Sintashta region that were also predominantly pastoralist.[6]



The first Sintashta settlements appeared around 2100 BCE, during a period of climatic change that saw the already arid Kazakh steppe region become even more cold and dry. The marshy lowlands around the Ural and upper Tobol rivers, previously favoured as winter refuges, became increasingly important for survival. Under these pressures both Poltovka and Abashevo herders settled permanently in river valley strongholds, eschewing more defensible hill-top locations.[7] The Abashevo culture was already marked by endemic intertribal warfare;[8] intensified by ecological stress and competition for resources in the Sintashta period, this drove the construction of fortifications on an unprecedented scale and innovations in military technique such as the invention of the war chariot.



Ethnic and linguistic identity:
The people of the Sintashta culture are thought to have spoken Proto-Indo-Iranian, the ancestor of the Indo-Iranian language family. This identification is based primarily on similarities between sections of the Rig Veda, an Indian religious text which includes ancient Indo-Iranian hymns recorded in Vedic Sanskrit, with the funerary rituals of the Sintashta culture as revealed by archaeology.[11] There is however linguistic evidence of a list of common vocabulary between Finno-Ugric and Indo-Iranian languages. While its origin as a creole of different tribes in the Ural region may make it inaccurate to ascribe the Sintashta culture exclusively to Indo-Iranian ethnicity, interpreting this culture as a blend of two cultures with two distinct languages is a reasonable hypothesis based on the evidence.[12]

[Decky]

If you discount people who committed horrible atrocities then you ipsofacto discount pretty much anyone who has ever been in government, there wouldn't be anyone left in world history anyone could idolise.

[Rancid]

Easy, the one party authoritarian government of China wants to re-enforce that strong leaders, be them tyrants or a one party state, are what's best for the nation.

[fuser]

Qin was always a hero before CCP, FFS liberals all across the world still ideolize Churchill, Bush had his bust in the white house and you are worried about some figure from thousands of years ago, what kind of propaganda you think is going on with Churchill?

But yeah Decky is bang on the side target and anyway communist party of China knows better than all of us, if they say Qin was a cool awesome guy, he was cool and awesome.

[Crantag]

I've watched some documentaries on Emperor Qin and the Qin dynasty, and basically every time I've mentioned it to Chinese they talk about how it was in extremely tyrannical time. The Qin dynasty might be classified as a totalitarian state. Sparta has also been classified as a totalitarian state by some historians, but Sparta is also in some sense worshiped in the West, as reflected in phrases like "to live/train/etc. like a Spartan."

But of course there is great historical significance in the Qin Dynasty. Moreover, people like Alexander the Great, and even by some Ghengis Khan are still worshiped in some respects. There is a lot of bias in the West about Chinese ancient history though, which is basically an extension of contemporary anti-Chinese sentiment, so this sort of post isn't surprising.

[Potemkin]

I've watched some documentaries on Emperor Qin and the Qin dynasty, and basically every time I've mentioned it to Chinese they talk about how it was in extremely tyrannical time.

Indeed. In fact, it was so tyrannical that it precipitated its own collapse. For example, any military expedition which failed to achieve its objectives would be executed. Not just the commander, but every single last soldier. No excuses were accepted. This meant that, for example, when a flooded river meant that an army could no longer achieve its assigned objectives, that army would not report back to be executed for its failure - instead, it would have no choice but to rebel. After just 15 years of this tyranny, rebellious armies were springing up everywhere, with nothing to lose. It was idiotic, and completely unnecessary.

The Qin dynasty might be classified as a totalitarian state. Sparta has also been classified as a totalitarian state by some historians, but Sparta is also in some sense worshiped in the West, as reflected in phrases like "to live/train/etc. like a Spartan."

It was one of the world's first attempts to create a bureaucratic totalitarian state. It was two thousand years ahead of its time.

But of course there is great historical significance in the Qin Dynasty. Moreover, people like Alexander the Great, and even by some Ghengis Khan are still worshiped in some respects. There is a lot of bias in the West about Chinese ancient history though, which is basically an extension of contemporary anti-Chinese sentiment, so this sort of post isn't surprising.

I agree - this sort of criticism lacks historical context or cultural self-awareness. The West has done worse shit than this. And the important point is that the Chinese themselves strongly reacted against the Qin Dynasty's tyranny - the Han Dynasty was deliberately founded on Confucian values of humaneness and piety rather than Legalistic ruthlessness and bureaucratism.

[Beren]

the Han Dynasty was deliberately founded on Confucian values of humaneness and piety rather than Legalistic ruthlessness and bureaucratism.

It was easier to be benevolent after the Qins had done the dirty work for them.

[Potemkin]

It was easier to be benevolent after the Qins had done the dirty work for them.

Indeed. But aren't we the same? We shed tears of pity for the poor, oppressed African-American slaves and the poor, oppressed British workers of the 19th century, after their labour and suffering has built our comfortable modern societies. We are always very careful only to feel pity for those whose exploitation is no longer useful to us. Lol.

Fuckers like the Qin Dynasty or the British ruling class of the 19th century were very useful to have around at the time, and even more useful now as scapegoats onto whom we can load all of our own sins and symbolically expel from among us.

[ThirdTerm]

Probably her knowledge on ancient China is largely based on the 2008 film "The Mummy: Tomb of the Dragon Emperor", in which the Dragon Emperor appears as the main antagonist of mummy hunters. Jet Li played Emperor Qin Shi Huang. Some of these gory descriptions of the Dragon Emperor may be historically inaccurate, only intended for the movie audience.

In ancient China, Qin Han, a brutal and tyrannical warlord, unites the country's kingdoms into an empire and becomes the Dragon Emperor. had intended to conquer lands in his name, and succeeded in claiming many territories for himself with no opposition; none in China could best him in strategy or strength, as many times during his campaigns, several assassins were sent to kill him in his sleep, but the men were all defeated before they could come close to harming the Emperor. Han went on to vanquish all opponents, destroy many settlements, and slaughter countless innocents, but in time, Han managed to defeat his enemies, as well as to order the construction of a massive wall that served to protect his newly-acquired empire from invaders. He also commanded his enemies and even his servants to be buried within the great wall upon their deaths. The Emperor's mystics taught him supernatural mastery over the classical elements fire, water, earth, wood and metal, making his power seem limitless and and ensure his kingdom would continue to prosper under his rule.

After some time in years later, Han's interests turned to preserving his youth as an immortal when he began to grow fearful that all he has accomplished will be lost upon his death, and so sought a witch named Zi Yuan, who was said to know the secrets behind immortality.

Han had sent his general and the sorceress to Turfan to find the formula to become immortal, though Ming Guo and Zi Yuan had, while in Turfan, fallen in love, to the Emperor's displeasure and defied his command that no man touch her. Zi Yuan had returned from Turfan with the Oracle Bones, a packet of ancient spells and enchantments that contained the secrets of immortality, and cast the spell to grant the Emperor his desire in Sanskrit, a language that the Emperor did not know: as punishment, Han ordered Ming Guo to be drawn and quartered by four horses. Han told Zi Yuan that if she agreed to become his queen, Ming would be spared, but Zi Yuan knew that the Emperor would never keep his word: the Emperor indifferently responded that she was right, and had Ming killed regardless. Enraged, Zi Yuan attacked Han who obtained her dagger and stabbed her. As Zi Yuan painfully staggered away, she cursed him for his betrayal of the sorceress. Han was preserved as a terra-cotta statue along with all his troops and their horses that too transformed into terracotta statues as she escaped, for centuries.

In his demise, the Emperor was entombed in an elaborate terracotta tomb, shaped to resemble a carriage with horses, but the Emperor's body was interred in one of the terracotta figures rather than the area for his body, in which was stored the corpse of a eunuch; the resulting coffin was interred in a chamber in which resided the Emperor's prized possessions and was even adorned with the Emperor's favored concubines, all mummified with him.

http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor_Han

[Beren]

Indeed. But aren't we the same?

Sure, it's nice to have someone do the dirty job for us while we remain clean, isn't it?

[Potemkin]

Sure, it's nice to have someone do the dirty job for us while we remain clean, isn't it?

Indeed it is, Beren. The idealists can dream all they like, but to make a dream into a reality someone has to roll their shirtsleeves up and get their hands dirty.... And this not a 'betrayal' of the dream, but its consummation.

[Beren]

Indeed it is, Beren. The idealists can dream all they like, but to make a dream into a reality someone has to roll their shirtsleeves up and get their hands dirty.... And this not a 'betrayal' of the dream, but its consummation.

I find this dreamers vs consummators dichotomy interesting, I wonder if it has something to do with the penis.

[Potemkin]

I find this dreamers vs consummators dichotomy interesting, I wonder if it has something to do with the penis.

Everything has something to do with the penis, Beren. But nothing can be achieved in reality without doing violence to reality. All life is an interspecific struggle for survival and dominance. How can it be otherwise? The trick is to achieve the right balance between co-operative and competitive behaviour.

[Victoribus Spolia]

I find this dreamers vs consummators dichotomy interesting, I wonder if it has something to do with the penis.

Everything has something to do with the penis, Beren. But nothing can be achieved in reality without doing violence to reality. All life is an interspecific struggle for survival and dominance. How can it be otherwise? The trick is to achieve the right balance between co-operative and competitive behaviour.

[Potemkin]

Everything has something to do with the penis, Beren.

Actually, it would be more accurate to say that everything has something to do with the phallus. As C.G. Jung once pointed out, "The penis is merely a phallic symbol."

[Rugoz]

There is a lot of bias in the West about Chinese ancient history though, which is basically an extension of contemporary anti-Chinese sentiment...

Is there?
Most people don't have a clue about Chinese ancient history.

[Crantag]

Is there?
Most people don't have a clue about Chinese ancient history.

I think there is bias in a lot of the popular media depictions. Not exclusively.

Anecdotally, I remember studying Chinese history in public school--especially middle school. I remember the video lessons we watched being rather fear inducing. I remember topics such as torture being covered. I also remember depictions of the Great Wall focusing much on the hardships endured by the workers, while also minimizing any successes of the project (maybe this was accurate, but I don't really know for sure--as an open invitation feel free to enlighten me if anyone has insights).

I also remember the videos relaying this particular anecdote, which I needed to cross reference from Wikipedia:

King Goujian's army was known for scaring its enemies before battle because its front line consisted of criminals sentenced to death who committed suicide by decapitating themselves.[2] However, in the passage, "越王句踐使死士挑戰，三行，至吳陳，呼而自剄。", the literal translation of "死士" is "soldiers (who are) willing to die", not "criminals sentenced to death". "自剄" means to "commit suicide by cutting one's throat," which was a common way to end one's own life in Ancient China.

It's interesting stuff, which is worth learning about, but as a middle schooler I remember finding it all a bit terrifying, and coming away with a somewhat jaded view of China's history.

What's more, I don't think such details in isolation present a very sound view of Chinese history. There are an abundance of incredible details from China's ancient history. It's possible that ancient Chinese philosophy is a touchy topic because of religious connotations. But the society was plenty advanced. It's thought that China had developed proto-capitalism way back when, for instance.

I contrast this with the rather romantic traditional view (which I also had taught to me) of Medieval Europe (which contemporary historians have seemingly often tended to take a different tact on). I don't recall ever learning about the Spanish inquisition/European torture in public school. It's possible that the Inquisition gets into that religious ground again and so is controversial for public school, but in looking back I tend to perceive a bit of a contrast. But than, some of that is probably a reflection of prevailing ingrained societal bias favorable to one's own cultural heritage, and not necessarily a cynical plot (though I never really said it was a cynical plot, I simply said it exists).

In any event, I really was just basing what I said on my own perceptions. I could be wrong, and you are more than free to disagree.