[skinster]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8555142/Wikileaks-no-bloodshed-inside-Tiananmen-Square-cables-claim.html

Thanks for bringing that to my attention. According to this article, they were still shooting people in that incident but I tend to give Wikileaks a lot of credit, so I could believe that it may have been exaggerated or that the tank part may have been added in.

The assumption by a lot of Westerners is, is that 'Tank Man' was run over. He wasn't. He went home.

Anyway, thanks for not being offended by reality like a bunch of whiners in this thread.

[Patrickov]

Wouldn't you, since the massacre didn't happen?

The sheer number of people believing that means there must be something happening. I didn't go just because of the emotional impact.

If I remember correctly they have much more abundant evidence to support their case.

Silicon Valley is removing reporters and orgs from their large media platforms for things like opposing U.S. foreign policy.

China does it at least 10 times worse.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politic ... nist-party

[skinster]

The sheer number of people believing that means there must be something happening. I didn't go just because of the emotional impact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3082463/chinese-journalist-jailed-15-years-attacking-communist-party

Yes, that's bad that he's charged for his opinions, but it also appears he was charged for things people get charged for over here too, like bribery/extortion. Have you heard of Julian Assange?

[Patrickov]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Your thread itself is essentially this. I at least put some suspicion and did not say what the mourners believe was 100% right.

Yes, that's bad that he's charged for his opinions, but it also appears he was charged for things people get charged for over here too, like bribery/extortion. Have you heard of Julian Assange?

The Chinese was sentenced for his opinions. In contrast, Assange is, at worst, charged with such.

Which means the United Kingdom and the United States treated Julian Assange much more fairly. He's not extradited to United States on whim and due process was observed.

Oh, and not to forget he's allowed to breed when he's trying to evade it ...

Last but not least, what Assange did was to have a platform that actually "shares" information that's often classified for a reason. In contrast, those persecuted in China merely opine.

[skinster]

Your thread itself is essentially this. I at least put some suspicion and did not say what the mourners believe was 100% right.

I'm not sure what my "thread" is, I was going by Wikileaks publishing docs of American government cables from their embassy in Beijing.

The Chinese was sentenced for his opinions.

And for extortion, bribery and blackmail.

Oh, and not to forget he's allowed to breed during this period ...

He wasn't imprisoned in prisons then, that was when he was holed up in the Ecuadorian embassy.

[Patrickov]

I'm not sure what my "thread" is

Merely using those numbers to justify support of China without actually reading how those figures come to be or whether it has changed is Argumentum ad populum.

And for extortion, bribery and blackmail.

This can easily be framed because Chinese judiciary is not independent of the Communist Party.

Another example of framing:
https://hongkongfp.com/2019/11/21/chine ... mon-cheng/

He wasn't imprisoned in prisons then, that was when he was holed up in the Ecuadorian embassy.

That's why I used the word "evade". In fact the United Kingdom and the United States had been very patient and not force the matter, which should be praised.

[skinster]

Merely using those numbers to justify support of China without actually reading how those figures come to be or whether it has changed is Argumentum ad populum.

Not sure what you're talking about at this stage so I'm done in that regard.

And thanks for your thoughts on praising the UK & US govt on its arrest and treatment of Assange for his crime of publishing documents. It's inconsistent with your care about journalists being censored for journalism, but my guess is that you would probably be okay with the imprisonment of any journalists that defend China today.

[Patrickov]

And thanks for your thoughts on praising the UK & US govt on its arrest and treatment of Assange for his crime of publishing documents.

This is yet to decide. If the process confirms that Assange is innocent then all is good, but since the process is there it has to be followed.

True that the United States is the plaintiff, but instead of kidnapping him and forcing him to confess (like China often does), they hold a full hearing which may as well cause the case be thrown out at the end. This is the difference.

By putting himself in another state's embassy for years, Assange has clearly showed that he will escape whenever he has the opportunity. This leaves the enforcers of the said process little choice.

As said, diplomatic documents are classified for a reason, and even it is for public good, challenging this does have consequences and it's absurd to suggest Assange can unconditionally walk free for doing this. It's not just a matter of himself, it's that no one knows the real intention of whoever wants to follow his footsteps.

One thing I praise Assange over Snowden: He could have easily found refuge in China or Russia, but he chose not to. This somewhat means he had higher standards.

[skinster]

Another poll on Chinese people just came out.

[Patrickov]

Another poll on Chinese people just came out.

Can't even read without a subscription, which means they are probably spying for China and spreading fake news.

(Retract. Apple Daily also does that. But it's right that in general I simply refuse media needing me to register or pay!)


https://www.allsides.com/news-source/newsweek

Ah, a leftard media. Must have filtered their target of poll.


I source most of my news of Guardian, also a Leftard media. It's easier to justify one's statement with a media one's against.

[skinster]

Yes you can read the article without a subscription. Here it is again. The poll was conducted by a London-based firm called Redfield & Wilton Strategies.

[Patrickov]

Yes you can read the article without a subscription. Here it is again. The poll was conducted by a London-based firm called Redfield & Wilton Strategies.

It is exactly that link that I cannot read without an account (why do they have to censor themselves like this anyways!). Repeatedly posting it does not help your cause.

[skinster]

I don't have an account with them either so I don't know why you can't see it.

Here's another poll from the beginning of the year.

[Patrickov]

I don't have an account with them either so I don't know why you can't see it.

The contents are buried under the force register message.

I used some means to revealed the sentence within:
"It was conducted online for Newsweek with more than 1,000 Hong Kong adults from July 19-21."

Falun Gong also based their "numbers" online. It's very easy to fake the numbers by making zombie accounts.

[skinster]

You have to accept that there are some people in Hong Kong who aren't as stupid as you.

[Patrickov]

Another dead horse beating. Even I said that independence is not the answer and I gave my examples.

Anti China is not necessarily pro independence.

[skinster]

Anti China is not necessarily pro independence.

Cool, because pro-independence is absurd given the reality of the situation.

[Patrickov]

Cool, because pro-independence is absurd given the reality of the situation.

It is even more absurd to use it to attack some people who already stated that something else is more important.

Yet another proof that you act out of reflex. Go see a doctor.

[skinster]

You were crying about independence all along, now what are you crying about? What has China done to hurt your feelings? You're able to hate all you like on China and then claim you're being persecuted for it. What is going on with you?

[Patrickov]

You were crying about independence all along, now what are you crying about?

I already proved a lot of times that the above is false and you failed to produce evidence to prove the contrary.

What has China done to hurt your feelings?

They introduced nepotism and corruption, and assert supreme authority without making themselves respectable first. They also unleash police violence since at least last year.

You're able to hate all you like on China and then claim you're being persecuted for it.

I was not persecuted in person but there are many others who find themselves do.

Also there have been a lot of disqualifications against those who simply help coordination of dissent.

What is going on with you?

This can be easily thrown back to you. Especially you are making false accusations.