[Rancid]

I agree with what you've said, mostly.

Therefore, the anti-imperial struggle will always first of all have to target the US.

Yes and no. As always, it's a little more complex.

Yes, in that the US is an imperialistic power, and should be stopped from trying to call the shots on what happens around the world. No question there. We need global cooperation, and global backing of freedom, rights, and wellbeing, etc. etc.

No in that if you only fixate on America as the only evil in this world, you are going to make decisions that are very naive and short sighted. You will end up helping to simply replace the American bully with another bully. I think this is very evident when you look at skinster's posting. Quite literally, she's defending a nation that has completely eroded the freedoms of Hong Kong, sterilizes minorities, and censors like crazy. Even if you want to dismiss all that as lies, they have very clearly and openly communicated imperialistic desires that cannot be denied. How exactly does that help eliminate empires? In reality, you have to both simultaneously dismantle the American imperialistic tenancies, but also fight others from trying to raise up with similar tendencies. Otherwise it's just a game of imperial wack-a-mole. Once you prop up and support Chinese imperialism to defeat American imperialism. Now you have the Chinese empire to deal with. What next? Support Russian imperialism (make no mistake, China and Russia are not friends, alliances are temporary)? It's a cycle that will never end. It's a fundamentally flawed strategy. To base an ideology around it, is simply bonkers.


Total side point here:
It's a bit of a myth the US is some sort of unilateral decision making entity though. The US really cannot go it alone on anything despite what many claim. The US usually needs buy-in at least from NATO countries when it comes to taking various actions. For example, the US did not go into Syria because Germany pushed back hard and would not offer support to the US. So yes, the US is a bully, but they can be pushed back on successfully and without supporting terrorism or regimes that in many ways, are arguably worse than the US.

[Atlantis]

Yes, in that the US is an imperialistic power, and should be stopped from trying to call the shots on what happens around the world. No question there. We need global cooperation, and global backing of freedom, rights, and wellbeing, etc. etc.

No argument here.

No in that if you only fixate on America as the only evil in this world, you are going to make decisions that are very naive and short sighted. You will end up helping to simply replace the American bully with another bully. I think this is very evident when you look at skinster's posting.

People attacking Western democracy while turning a blind eye on repressive regimes only discredit themselves. They have no influence on decision-makers.

For neutral or non-aligned nations it's useful to have more than one superpower because the pressure from the one can be neutralized by siding with the other.

Of course, we are deeply rooted in the belief that "we" (the democratic West) are the good ones and the others are the bad ones. But that is a bit too simplistic too. As shown by Trump's presidency, the US is more of a plutocracy than democracy and to the US, unilateralism is more important than international cooperation.

In fact, China has been more cooperative with regard to international trade and climate change than the US. The US has systematically torpedoed all international agreements: Iran deal, Paris Agreements, WTO, arms limitation agreements, international court of justice, while unilaterally imposing sanctions and extraterritorial law on friends and foes alike. The US has been like that before. Trump is just more open about it.

But, but, but, China isn't a democracy ... Different countries require different types of governments. It's not possible to impose Western types of government on other countries by force. Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan mark so many failures of exporting Western types of government.

We have to come to a rules-based structure in which all countries (even the US) respect certain rules. I think it is possible to integrate non-democratic countries like China in such a structure. China has to find its own way to democracy. It cannot be imposed from the outside. And as I said above, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that China can establish a global hegemony. It just doesn't have the credibility and the soft-power to do so. That doesn't mean we shouldn't oppose Chinese influence abroad or criticize human rights abuse at home.

The biggest obstacle to Chinese global hegemony is Chinese nationalism.

[Rancid]

Yes, I think those are all very valid and strong points.

[Finfinder]

I summary of this thread so far: China has found many usful idiots to proliferate their propaganda and imperial expansion.

[skinster]

@skinster, China has always been an empire

While I disagree with Skinster in this respect, she is right in that the US is the only actual empire.

OK then.

It has nothing to do with telepathy. Numerous statements by Chinese leaders postulating Chinese global influence or the fact that China will replace the US as first global power also has nothing to do with telepathy.

You are switching from your claim that CHINA IS IMPERIALIST to CHINA'S RISING AS A WORLD POWER. The latter, everyone who's paying attention, knows. The former, you are yet to prove.

Therefore, the anti-imperial struggle will always first of all have to target the US.

Again, how is China imperialist? Give one or two examples of Chinese imperialism today.

[Patrickov]

China has to find its own way to democracy.

The reason that people down here in Hong Kong are so resistant is that we simply do not see it happening at all.

It cannot be imposed from the outside.

One may be surprised but I do agree this. Instead of imposing democracy (which defeats the purpose), some people have to be conquered (administered like what Hong Kong used to be). Whether they take up the more civilised way or condemn themselves to annihilation (or indirect, gradual and non-violent elimination [淘汰, i.e. fade out themselves]) is their own choice.

[Patrickov]

Again, how is China imperialist? Give one or two examples of Chinese imperialism today.

Introductory information

More specific:

Hong Kong: China had always been trying to subvert us but they actually failed more and more after they actually took the place "back". The point is not "Western subversion", the point is why Western subversion worked and the Chinese one didn't. I always see such things as a struggle between two sides and with the remoteness of the United States they are very much the weaker side. If the weaker side is also evil they shouldn't gain attention at all, but they achieved much more than that, so there must be something else.

Vietnam also had it very hard. Ask them. They are Communists too, aren't they?

[Rancid]

The reason that people down here in Hong Kong are so resistant is that we simply do not see it happening at all.

True, it has gone the other way for Hong Kong. I think people were hoping that Hong Kong's freedoms would rub off on the mainland. Unfortunately, the opposite has happened. It's damn shame, because my kids will not be able to meet their mom's side of the family. They have met my side of the family as we travel to my parents old country.

Again, how is China imperialist? Give one or two examples of Chinese imperialism today.

Pretty sure claims to the south china seas and Taiwan are imperialistic tendencies. So is the debt trap diplomacy all over Africa, as well as their initial forays into doing the same in Latin America. So is their interference with the affairs of Sri lanka and the Maldives.

They've bullied, bought and paid the Dominican and other Latin American nations to cut ties with Taiwan, how is all of this not imperialistic behavior?

Culturally, the CCP is obsessed with restoring the Chinese empire, as the last few centuries have been centuries of humiliation for them. This isn't shit that's being made up. This is all well known.

They are indisputably as imperlistic as any empire that has come before.

What are you smoking? I want some of that shit. Must be good.

[skinster]

Patrickov's lazy Wiki search:



Vietnam is China's frand. From today:

[Rancid]

Patrickov's lazy Wiki search:

Followed by lazily posting tweets....

[skinster]

Feel free to point out the lies. With more than your boring and whiny opinion. And maybe something that isn't Wikipedia.

[Patrickov]

"Why don't you go live in China?" Because my family lives in England.

Which is exactly what I see as hypocrisy. Some people simply do not appreciate the good they have at home.

My family and I have experienced administration from both sides first-hand, and my family share views with me.

In fact, they actually have stronger opinions than I do, and yes, I am indeed lazy compared with them.

[skinster]

Yeah, I already pointed that out.

[Patrickov]

Vietnam is China's frand. From today:

What about this?
Vietnam, Philippines criticise Chinese military drills in South China Sea

This is allegedly a pro-China media, so by your standards it shouldn't be a lie. Which mean either you or Vietnam is lying.

[skinster]

What about this?
Vietnam, Philippines criticise Chinese military drills in South China Sea

Looks like China and Vietnam are overall allies with a few disputes. But you should really google what imperialism means before throwing it around in a way it doesn't apply.

[Patrickov]

Looks like China and Vietnam are overall allies with a few disputes. But you should really google what imperialism means before throwing it around in a way it doesn't apply.

Don't be stupid. Vietnam fought for independence because they resist Chinese Imperialist rule, despite being under such rule intermittently for over 1000 years.

That didn't effectively change in 20th Century onwards. China only helped Vietgong and not the general Vietnamese because the Vietgong served their interests. However, almost as soon as the Vietgong stopped listening to China they had a armed conflict no less.

No one would say killing each other being simply "dispute", and any bigger country using such means in attempt to make a smaller country bow to their wills is Imperialism.

Given such track records it's also absurd to suggest that the South China Sea is simply "dispute", although I did agree that the West enabled this in the first place and China simply leapt on the opportunity.

[Rancid]

What about this?
Vietnam, Philippines criticise Chinese military drills in South China Sea

This is allegedly a pro-China media, so by your standards it shouldn't be a lie. Which mean either you or Vietnam is lying.

Not sure why you are spending so much energy here. The reality is, that facts do not matter to skinster. When people pin their identity to an ideology. It's near impossible to get them to acknowledge anything that is reasonable and well supported. This happens because when you pin you identity to some ideology (no matter how principled or stupid it is), an attack on those beliefs is taken as a personal attack. You also have to couple with the fact that most humans have a VERY hard time admitting when they are wrong and off base.

The best you can do, is plant a seed as opposed to try to waste hours on them. Ultimately, if you haven't noticed, all skinster does is say "Show me evidence, show me evidence" to feign that she is a reasonable person, but when you show it, the response is "no!" and then the response is a wall of tweets that tell her how to think.

I'm not saying don't engage with her, but perhaps you don't need to engage so much with her. It's kind of a waste of time.

[Patrickov]

Not sure why you are spending so much energy here. The reality is, that facts do not matter to skinster.

I just happen to be interested in seeing how hypocritical this person can go at the time being.

EDIT: Although I agree that it is much more efficient to "shut up" evil people.

[skinster]

When boring liberals think they've transcended ideology.

[Rancid]

When boring liberals think they've transcended ideology.

Liberal? I thought I was a neocon to you?

I get it though, logic & reason = boring [rule 2 insult deleted - Prosthetic Conscience].