[Politics_Observer]

@late @Crantag

It's like I said, the grass is always greener on the other side, especially before the honeymoon phase is over.

[Crantag]

@late @Crantag

It's like I said, the grass is always greener on the other side, especially before the honeymoon phase is over.

I fail to see much relavance of this to what I have had to say. It might just be that I am too thick to grasp it, not really sure.

[Politics_Observer]

@Crantag

Come on man, you said it, "America's a fascist state." Look at China man. Always trying to censor or stop VPN usage so they can prevent people from exercising their right to privacy and freedom on the internet. This guy @late showed in the video complaining about the lack of freedom in China. The CCP always trying to cover up the truth of what is happening in their society and always trying to paint this false rosy picture of "everything is just fine!" You get the idea.

[Politics_Observer]

@Crantag

And what about those unarmed protestors massacred by the PLA at Tienanmen Square back in the day who all they were doing was engaging in peaceful protest for democratic rights and reforms to government. Heck, from what I have been reading, there is a lot of censorship about Tienanmen Square and the CCP tries to cover up this part of their history. As if it never even happened or existed.

[late]

You seem to have a lot of esteem for the views of people, based on said people having lived in China.

All the stuff you said sounded very typical and familiar to me, as one who lived in China.

There's a common 'Chinglish' phrase. 'That's China.'

"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."

[Politics_Observer]

And here is what gets me as somebody who has traveled to his fair share of foreign locations, it's that so many Americans take all their precious freedoms and rights for granted and are just willing to throw them all away for an authoritarian and dictator wannabe like Trump and some of these authoritarian republican politicians. The fact of the matter is, there are things more important than tribe and that is our ideals and values as a free and democratic country. We cannot take our freedom and our values for granted and just toss them away. Our values of democracy and freedom matter more and our far more valuable than just simply the pursuit of power at any cost that some of our republican politicians are pursuing.

[Crantag]

@Crantag

Come on man, you said it, "America's a fascist state." Look at China man. Always trying to censor or stop VPN usage so they can prevent people from exercising their right to privacy and freedom on the internet. This guy @late showed in the video complaining about the lack of freedom in China. The CCP always trying to cover up the truth of what is happening in their society and always trying to paint this false rosy picture of "everything is just fine!" You get the idea.

The annoying habit of 'Westerners' to judge China (and other societies) by the idealized (though far from actualized) mainstream aspirations (and fantastical but false perceptions) of their own 'Western' societies is not a genuinely productive exercise. It is a blinder.

China has to be understood on its own terms.

On the matter of freedom though, what China doesn't have, which the US does is an industrial system of locking people up.

For instance, when relatively minor crimes happen, such as property damage or fights, the preferred way that it is handled is the interested parties are taken to the police station, and the police mediate an arrangement whereby a compensation agreement is met, and both sides go on their way. None of the American bullshit; and the American euphemistically termed 'criminal justice system' is utterly horrible. The US has a gulag system, it is just referred to euphemistically by kinder terms (euphemisms being major building blocks of 'American' socio-political experience, of course).

In many ways, I feel freer in China. People just get on with whatever they are on about, and are typically not concerning themselves with sticking their noses in others' business. There is a sort of mass derangement which tends to permeate so-called 'advanced countries'. In so-called 'less developed' or 'developing' countries, there is an element of true human tendency being less obfuscated. So-called 'citizens' of these 'advanced countries' delude themselves into thinking their societies have achieved some kind of 'human progress', and that they have license to look down on those lessers across the boarders. The reality is it is the 'advanced' countries which live by the more artificial standards of society, and it is the 'advanced' countries in which the greater portions of society, are fucking nuts.

I would class China as maybe somewhere in the middle. Sure, China has it's fair share of social engineering, etc., but it is nothing on the level which the pot-calling-the-kettle-black 'Westerners' typically delude themselves into thinking it is.

The main recourse 'Westerners' seem to have vis-a-vis China is to bitch and complain, as if their birth right as the 'exceptional people' has been undercut by China, and as if blaming their lot on a healthy scapegoat in China is some kind of productive undertaking.

Meanwhile, in China, people continue to go on about their days, working and studying their asses off, whilst China and ever growing numbers of Chinese are laughing all the way to the bank.

In the case of Americans, this couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch.

[Crantag]

"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."

I searched the quote.

Um, no, that was not an analogous phrase. That was a depiction of the mafia style of American society, which includes Chinese and other Asian mafia.

'That's China' is what Chinese people will say when confronted with some of the weird (though interesting, and usually mostly harmless) shit that goes on in China all the time.

[Politics_Observer]

@Crantag

It's a fair point that you make about America locking up way too many people. However, I don't think this is a case of "understanding China on it's own terms." It's important we understand China through critical thinking and thinking for ourselves and analyzing the facts and context of the situation and drawing logical conclusions from the both the facts and context. China is an authoritarian state and authoritarianism is not something any country should admire or aspire to. Now as far as Chinese culture, I am sure it's awesome and Chinese people are awesome. But that still doesn't change the fact that China, under the CCP, is an authoritarian state. That being all said,I do like the picture of the Chinese police directing the geese traffic. I think that's funny!

[Politics_Observer]

@Crantag

It's good to travel around the world and visit countries that are reasonably safe enough to visit and if you can afford to do so. The reason is simple: by traveling and visiting other countries, you learn a lot about your own country and yourself. Democracy is something that the Chinese people have to choose and fight for and earn for themselves. Nobody else can do that for them and it's ultimately up to them if they want to live in freedom and democracy. But aside from all that, authoritarianism can take root in any country, including the United States. Authoritarianism is not something that is unique to any sort of national identity but something that can happen anywhere. We are no exception to that rule here in the United States.

[late]

Um, no, that was not an analogous phrase.

I was satirising your dismissive attitude... China has changed a lot over the last decade, but particularly under the hypernationalism of Xi.

[Crantag]

I was satirising your dismissive attitude... China has changed a lot over the last decade, but particularly under the hypernationalism of Xi.

It wasn't a dismissive attitude it was a frank and slightly scornful (of your ignorance and bigotry) attitude. And your satire attempt misfired. You also don't keep up well because I already clarified the point which flew over your head with a photo bomb.

[late]

It wasn't a dismissive attitude...

uh huh...

[Rugoz]

And what about those unarmed protestors massacred by the PLA at Tienanmen Square back in the day who all they were doing was engaging in peaceful protest for democratic rights and reforms to government. Heck, from what I have been reading, there is a lot of censorship about Tienanmen Square and the CCP tries to cover up this part of their history. As if it never even happened or existed.

Funnily enough there were people within the CCP sympathetic of the protests. Most prominently the general secretary and former premier Zhao Ziyang.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Ziyang

After the massacre he was put under house arrest and was more or less erased from history.

The economic reforms continued while the political reforms did not.

[Crantag]

uh huh...

You have a very annoying habit born of your vanity. You dismiss explanations and cherry pick phrases out of context to try to have the last word.

Your ignorance is glaring and your attempted appeal to authority was beyond laughable and week.

I spoke from lengthy and deep personal experience. You spoke from a position of ignorance gleaned from I can only assume to be very slanted YouTube videos (did not watch) and presumably from the all pervasive 'Western' propaganda.

You offered nothing creative, unique, or insightful.

So, yeah alright, you are dismissed.

[Politics_Observer]

@Crantag

Another thing I will say is that the Chinese work very hard and are dedicated to their jobs and professions. I admire that about the Chinese. I think it's important to have balance in life too and perhaps sometimes the Chinese might work a little too hard, but the fact they are dedicated and passionate about their professions and work hard is very good.

[Patrickov]

Democracy is something that the Chinese people have to choose and fight for and earn for themselves. Nobody else can do that for them and it's ultimately up to them if they want to live in freedom and democracy.

It is far easier said than done.

Hongkongers tried in 2019. What do they get? National Security Law, an Iron-fist by practical shut down of all dissident apparatus and mass persecutions.

Myanmarese tried earlier this year. What do they get? Death and turmoil in the hands of the military.

BOTH local input AND international support -- even as far as military ones -- are important. It is wishful thinking to sit back and hope that locals can sort themselves out.

With the prevalence of Chinese and Russian aggressions these days (not direct but in many ways influential), it is just a matter of time before Westerners suffer themselves, either in the way of World War or the destruction of democracy and freedom.

At least give the wrongdoers a taste of Soleimani.

[Igor Antunov]

You don't 'try for' a hostile CIA led and organized export of a degenerate system that turns you into a puppet at best, a failed state at worst (more common). It tries for you.

[colliric]

.

'That's China' is what Chinese people will say when confronted with some of the weird (though interesting, and usually mostly harmless) shit that goes on in China all the time.]

You forgot the endless piles of hire bikes

[Politics_Observer]

@Patrickov

It is far easier said than done.

Hongkongers tried in 2019. What do they get? National Security Law, an Iron-fist by practical shut down of all dissident apparatus and mass persecutions.

Myanmarese tried earlier this year. What do they get? Death and turmoil in the hands of the military.

BOTH local input AND international support -- even as far as military ones -- are important. It is wishful thinking to sit back and hope that locals can sort themselves out.

With the prevalence of Chinese and Russian aggressions these days (not direct but in many ways influential), it is just a matter of time before Westerners suffer themselves, either in the way of World War or the destruction of democracy and freedom.

At least give the wrongdoers a taste of Soleimani.

Well, for the U.S. it's a darned if you do and darned if you don't situation. You are correct in most of what you say. The U.S. has a role in helping to assure the world is safe for democracy. But it also has to assure that democracy is safe at home here in the U.S. too. Moreover, it is not always as simple as a country like the U.S. to use military force to overthrow an authoritarian regime and replace it with a democratic government either. Especially when the use of such military force will have unacceptable costs to the U.S. and/or the rest of the world. The locals have to really want to live in a democratic society too and have to take the lead to fight for a democracy.

A country like the U.S. can play a supporting role and support oppressed peoples but at the end of the day, the tip of the spear has to be the people themselves fighting for their freedom and rights. They will need help of course, but a country like the U.S. can't do it all for them either. The U.S. also has a duty and obligation to uphold human rights BOTH here at home and abroad too. This might mean strengthening our own democratic institutions here at home as well as putting various kinds of pressure on authoritarian regimes to respect human rights and of people to choose their own destiny.