[JohnRawls]

I didn't say that China should shut itself off from the world @JohnRawls, they would of course need to trade. What I said at this moment in time I don't think they need the free market. That is they could cut themselves away from our markets and then focus on their own market instead given there is potential there. At the moment the Chinese aren't consumers like the West as they are frugal but signs are changing and there is at least a growing market there which they could easily improve on.

When you have a market that relies on someone else's labor, who has the advantage. The exporter or the importer?

The importer. If the importer refuses to buy then the factories or production is useless. Meaning that it will pack up and move somewhere where the consumers are or at least from a place where they can start exporting again for a profit.

[B0ycey]

The importer. If the importer refuses to buy then the factories or production is useless. Meaning that it will pack up and move somewhere where the consumers are or at least from a place where they can start exporting again for a profit.

Then I would say we best start building some factories then John. We have been moaning about the size of China's pie for the past few decades and we seem to always come running back to them.

The truth is that the cost of things we want to buy will skyrocket if we produce things ourselves and although I personally am happy for that to happen, there is an issue with inflation and affordability if we do. And I suspect all that will happen is that those goods that would otherwise have come to Europe would instead be sold in China as the Chinese government have always artificially devalued their currency and the reason for doing so would be pointless and the average Chinese individual will be richer for it.

[JohnRawls]

Then I would say we best start building some factories then John. We have been moaning about the size of China's pie for the past few decades and we seem to always come running back to them.

The truth is that the cost of things we want to buy will skyrocket if we produce things ourselves and although I personally am happy for that to happen, there is an issue with inflation and affordability if we do. And I suspect all that will happen is that those goods that would otherwise have come to Europe would instead be sold in China as the Chinese government have always artificially devalued their currency and the reason for doing so would be pointless and the average Chinese individual will be richer for it.

Yes to cover the costs of repositioning and higher production costs. Ultimately will get balanced out by competition.

But it is something that the importer will recover from relatively easily. Ultimately demand creates more production or higher prices. Exporters export in the first place for 2 reason:
1) They can make more profit abroad.
2) Their internal consumption can't buy all of the production.

Pre middle income trap countries have problems with both.

[Rancid]

@JohnRawls, just face it already. The world will be beholden to CCP imperialism. Might as well bow to them now. There are only so many slots open for foreign sycophants. Get in while you can.

I'm thinking of doing the same.

[Istanbuller]

Republicans would be very happy if they could divert Hispanic migration to China. But it is almost impossible for geographical reasons.

[Skynet]

China will be the richest nation on earth if we like it or not:

Their students lead in Pisa

Reading / Lesen


Mathematics


Natural Science / Naturwissenschaften





They have still the good old beating up by teacher.

[JohnRawls]

China will be the richest nation on earth if we like it or not:

Their students lead in Pisa

Reading / Lesen


Mathematics


Natural Science / Naturwissenschaften





They have still the good old beating by teacher.

Estonia number 2 i guess.

How is it fair that all countries are counted as a whole while China can cherry pick 2 of its most developed costal parts municipalities and richest ones at that while ignoring the other 98% of the country.

[JohnRawls]

China will be the richest nation on earth if we like it or not:

Their students lead in Pisa

Reading / Lesen


Mathematics


Natural Science / Naturwissenschaften





They have still the good old beating up by teacher.

This year Japs and Singapore are ahead while the most developed Chinese PROVINCES instead of municipalities are also on top just not so high if you don't pick the 2 richest municipalities. Long story short, you can cherry pick any result you want. I am pretty sure if Estonia picked the Tallinn's city centre municipality for this list only which is basically the old town with several very prestigious schools then we can hit autism levels of scores that have never been seen before on the PISA list.

[Rancid]

Japs

RACIST!

[ThingkingPanda]

Estonia number 2 i guess.

How is it fair that all countries are counted as a whole while China can cherry pick 2 of its most developed costal parts municipalities and richest ones at that while ignoring the other 98% of the country.

Obviously you don't know much about China. In China, the provinces with the best student exam results are not the most developed regions, but inland provinces, such as Hubei, Hunan, Hebei or Henan.

[ThingkingPanda]

The mere fact China started so low and became the second biggest economy is an achievement not a negative surely?

At this moment in time @JohnRawls, I don't think China even need to remain in the free market. They have the production and a market of 2bn people with or without the rest of the world, the West are merely the warehouse. They also currently have GDP and growth figures that the West can only dream of and trying to suggest that this is going to be devastating for China is ignoring that the West hasn't reached a solid digit growth figure for a sustainable period of time since before 2008 and that is like 13 years ago now and I expect China will do just as well if that happens to them now. I also think the West needs to stop kidding itself. Their market should be emulating what China is doing and not trying to think they have something better. They don't. We lost the advantage when we sent our production to China for a quick profit and I would say the reason we cannot compete with their growth today is simply because wealth creation is down to production and what we have is consumer led economy. That is why Germany is today the big fish in Europe. They didn't pack their production to Asia and now are better for it.

In 2020, China's GDP has exceeded 100 trillion yuan, including 32.16 trillion yuan of goods import and export (17.93 trillion yuan of exports and 14.2 trillion yuan of imports). Exports account for 17% of China's GDP. The year when China exported the most was 2006. At that time, export trade accounted for 35.4% of GDP. In 2019, it dropped to 17.4% of GDP, which is lower now. In the future, the proportion of China's exports will be close to 15% and 12%, and the proportion of domestic circulation will be close to 85% and 90% from 82.6%.

China is the largest single market in the world. Industries with comparative advantages should make full use of the international market. China also has industries without comparative advantages. The vast majority of developed countries are willing to sell China high-tech products with comparative advantages, except for a few countries. China will continue to maintain stable development in international trade.

[ThingkingPanda]

Meanwhile, China dumps sewage into the ocean causing dead zones and algea blooms.

Way to go CCP. You dumb fucks.

Sounds like global incompetence to me. Communist with "Chinese characteristics" is pure shit, literally.

I think a peaceful discussion is better than a groundless abuse. I hope you are more polite.
In addition, it is Japan, not China, that pollutes the world's oceans through nuclear waste water.

[late]

In addition, it is Japan, not China, that pollutes the world's oceans through nuclear waste water.

You spend a lot of time dodging the obvious...

[Russianbear]

Democracy is not the only possible political system that suits every country and "The West is not the best".
Before the West took for granted democracy from the ancient Greeks, they should have at least become acquainted with what Greek thinkers said about democracy like Plato in his work "Republic", where he characterized democracy as one of the worst possible political systems. Plato uses the Republic to criticize democracy, which makes it suitable for mass ignorance, hysteria and, ultimately, tyranny.
And that is exactly what is happening in the West at the moment, from the corrupt two party cartels, to the tyranny of plutocracy and corporate fascism.
Taking for granted democracy without reading Plato's Republic was the same as accepting Christianity without ever having heard of the Bible, and that is exactly what the West has done in its arrogance and ignorance.
Unlike the West, China does not consider democracy as a religion (dogmatic political system) but as a dynamic process with own creative input that aims to achieve prosperity for both the country and the people who live in it.
The Chinese people do not need Western democracy because they are completely happy without it. If the West is satisfied with its democracy, that is fine as long as they keep it to themselves and do not impose it on others. We do not want western decline, we prefer our undisputed progress.

[JohnRawls]

Democracy is not the only possible political system that suits every country and "The West is not the best".
Before the West took for granted democracy from the ancient Greeks, they should have at least become acquainted with what Greek thinkers said about democracy like Plato in his work "Republic", where he characterized democracy as one of the worst possible political systems. Plato uses the Republic to criticize democracy, which makes it suitable for mass ignorance, hysteria and, ultimately, tyranny.
And that is exactly what is happening in the West at the moment, from the corrupt two party cartels, to the tyranny of plutocracy and corporate fascism.
Taking for granted democracy without reading Plato's Republic was the same as accepting Christianity without ever having heard of the Bible, and that is exactly what the West has done in its arrogance and ignorance.
Unlike the West, China does not consider democracy as a religion (dogmatic political system) but as a dynamic process with own creative input that aims to achieve prosperity for both the country and the people who live in it.
The Chinese people do not need Western democracy because they are completely happy without it. If the West is satisfied with its democracy, that is fine as long as they keep it to themselves and do not impose it on others. We do not want western decline, we prefer our undisputed progress.

Modern democracy was borrowed along with liberalism and so on from the writing of the classical philosophers of the renaissance and onwards. Actually there is no one clear path on how it happened and many philosophers and politicians contributed to this process even before renaissance. That is why we still read them to understand the classical works. And their works were based on the texts of Ancient Greek and Roman philosophers. Bottom line being, you haven't read any of the works yourself since you are saying this. Most of the "classics" were obsessed with analyizing, finding flaws and improving the works of the ancient Greek and Roman philosopher to a not healthy degree in my opinion. This goes far beyond just political philosophy also.

After rigorous process of theory and practice, democracy has prevailed. Europe has tried numerous autocratic, totalitarian, theocratical, democratic, monarchical and so on forms but democratic liberalism has won in the end. Political Darwinism i guess if such a thing exists.

[Rancid]

"The West is not the best"

It's not the best, but it's better. Funny enough, I have the freedom to say that. I can say that without fear.

I'd like to see someone in China say "The east (as in China) is not the best." That alone explains why the west is better. I can openly say, I think Trump is fucking moron, and i think Biden is a fucking moron too. I have no fears from my government when I say that. I bet you cannot say "Xi is a moron" on a Chinese forum. That alone proves the west is better. It's really that fucking simple. YOU can duck and dodge, and point to all sorts of stuff about the west's sorted past (which we do not hide from), but that alone will always make it better. plain and fucking simple.

What we can say, is that western style democracy based on principles freedom and fairness (obviously, that's still being worked on) is far better than authoritarian shitholes. China/Russia/Iran/NK looks to want to protect these authoritarian hellscapes, because these nations themselves aspire to be such. I mean look at the "friends" these nations keep. Funny enough, China will throw Russia under the bus as soon as that relationship of convenience isn't convenient. Anyway, It's far too stupid to look for what is "best". It makes more sense to look for what is better.

Last, justifying authoritarianism via bullshit phrases like national "harmony" and "unity" is bullshit. Enjoy your shit hole authoritarianism. Enjoy making up excuse and apologies for horrible regimes that are actively committing genocide in 2021. Not 1492, but in fucking 2021.

[Rancid]

I think a peaceful discussion is better than a groundless abuse. I hope you are more polite.
In addition, it is Japan, not China, that pollutes the world's oceans through nuclear waste water.

Japan was rightfully criticized for their failures. what does that have to do with China's poor behavior and abuse of the planet and its own people? Pointing at someone else's failures is not an argument. If that is your strategy, then your propaganda is going to fail miserably. You have nothing to hide beyond except for intimidation, fear, and violence. These are the tools of monsters.

You sound really fake and coached.
"polite"

Lucky for you and your masters. We on this forum, do not represent the typical masses. We are insignificant and have no power/influence over much of anything. Your misinformation efforts are better suited for youtube, facebook, etc. etc. You might as well focus your efforts there. You will be more effective, and have a much much broader reach across different people. Including people that are more dumb and more gullible to fall for your propaganda.

I'll stop posting on this thread now. I have low tolerance for stupidity.

[Skynet]

@Rancid Come on, The CCP has also real supporters. I think it is cool to see other viewpoints.

[Rancid]

@Rancid Come on, The CCP has also real supporters. I think it is cool to see other viewpoints.

Deflection, misinformation, and propaganda, are not viewpoints. What we are seeing here is trash done in bad faith.

That's the fundamental strategy from authoritarian shitholes (study any authoritarian shithole from the Americas, to Europe, to Africa, to Asia...). Exploit the relative openness of freer societies to spread their logical fallacies and general bullshit. This happens at various levels.

All view points are not equal, and all view points are not valid. Especially not these "viewpoints". Just as we dismiss superstition, we should be dismissing this crap being spewed in this thread.

Many of us have fallen for the trap that all views/opinions deserve equal attention and weight. This is a mistake. Trash is trash, and should be called out as such.

[Rugoz]

In this forum, people are keen to talk about various doctrines, ideologies and political views. Many people ridicule and even hate China's political system. They tend to regard the 1.4 billion Chinese as no-face slaves. They think that we are all supporters of fanatical dictators, and we have no soul and thoughts of our own.

How many of your own thoughts have you presented here? I dare to say not that many.

Either way, its the CCP worshippers who think of the Chinese people as immature children that must be ruled by an "enlightened elite", which, by the way, denies them their own history! Looks like I respect the Chinese people more than you do.

Since the end of the Qing Dynasty in China, the Chinese have opened the most incredible social experiment in the world. We tried constitutional monarchy, parliamentary system, presidential system, republican system and almost all modern democratic systems. Finally, we chose the socialist system led by the Communist Party of China.

China had a short-lived Republican period, but it was authoritarian in nature as well. China certainly didn't "try almost all all modern democratic systems". CCP rule was the consequence of its military victory over the nationalists (which, among other things, happened because the Japanese war on China weakened the nationalists).

Of course CCP rule under Mao was mostly a disaster, with tens of millions starving during the great leap forward, to give one example. Deng gave up on socialism by any real definition of the word. China today is a highly unequal society, more unequal than basically every other industrialized country. Whether that will correct itself remains to be seen.

I love China, I support the CPC. I can't represent all 1.4 billion Chinese, but I think most Chinese people are like me.

Chinese who are not like you will never get their voices heard, because the CCP will silence them if they attract too much attention. If you were right, the CCP would have nothing to fear from free and fair elections, because it would win them comfortably every time, right?