In China, unlike America, political legitimacy is built on competence and experience - Page 6 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues in the People's Republic of China.

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#15181639
B0ycey wrote:The point is China have had the same type of history that the West have. In fact I would say it is significantly more bloody than the West in particular the US which is a relatively new nation anyway.

Also I have found Thingking Pandas Posts rather interesting as he reminds me of Balancer, a Russian, a few years back which have given us an insight of China from their perspective. You don't have to agree with him but I know first hand his voice is not alone in China. That is kind of why I have stayed out of this thread despite enjoying it. You see the Western opinion being challenged and what I have found is users that are challenging the Chinese narrative have no clue what they are talking about. Like China not being in WW2?? But that isn't saying there isn't a challenge to be made or that the Chinese narrative is correct. What I am saying is you need to learn about China in order to understand China and perhaps be able to challenge the arguments being made.


Chinese experience was different compared to Europes and Western experience for them and it didn't end in 1945 for them. Chinese WW2 participation was basically a war of independence and later of unification.

The difference is the lessons that both sides learned from the war, Europe and US learned that peace in Europe needs to be maintained to prevent WW3 and not to look the other way when a genocide is happening in a very very simplistic explanation. Hence institutions like the EU, NATO, UN and so on appeared along with tougher sanctions for genocide and other atrocities.

For China though, other lessons were learned as I said. Bloody conflicts doesn't mean that you will learn all of the lessons for some reason. Usually underlying problems or causes or severe excesses of a conflict are adressed when the war is over. If it was that simple that after 1 war you can learn all of the lessons then how come the systems of governance, politics and diplomacy changed so much with every major conflict? Change in Europe and US happened incrementally conflict after conflict. It didn't happen with 1 war that catapulted us from nothing to the EU, UN and so on after lets say just the 30 years war.
#15181644
Mate, the West have been in more wars than China since WW2. So much for peace!

Also I don't really know what you are saying here @JohnRawls. There is nothing exceptional with the West and naturally given the butterfly effect we shouldn't expect the same outcome between nations anyway. But what I find ironic is that the West think they are somewhat superior to the rest of the world. I support Democracy, but others don't. Are they wrong? Well you have to ask them. And ultimately that is all that matters. It has nothing to do with me and everything to do with them given they live in such a society. And that is how it should be. And even so, you can also critical of Democracy anyway given it has presented both Trump and Brexit recently as pointed out by another user. Also, even if China was Democratic, given the support of the CCP, they would be in power anyway. So what is the big deal?

Ultimately as I said before there is a lot the West should be doing to emulate China especially in regards to homelessness, economics, production and believe it or not... corruption. So in that sense there is a lot of good in China. It isn't the wicked beast people think it is at all. Even the contentious issues there can be a case to be made from China's prospective. I won't go into them given they are contentious but there is an argument for them. So ultimately it is the West who should be implementing China policies with Western characteristics. We should be making more of our own stuff and doing so with our ideals given greed has basically divided us today. So rather than playing pissing games saying who has the better history or better society we should just accept that we have opposing opinions to the East and deal with each other as partners. We shouldn't be blaming China because the Bourgeois took all our production East and made Asia wealthy and now we are looking on trying to find blame for our own failures and making stuff up that they need us more than we need them.
#15181649
B0ycey wrote:I support Democracy, but others don't. Are they wrong? Well you have to ask them. And ultimately that is all that matters.


That's at its very core a democratic attitude that others don't share. In fact being opposed to democracy always means that people should have no say in whether they want to live in a democracy or not.

B0ycey wrote:Ultimately as I said before there is a lot the West should be doing to emulate China especially in regards to homelessness, economics, production and believe it or not... corruption.


I really don't see why any Western country would want to emulate China. There are better East Asian options, if you're a fan of that model.
#15181651
Rugoz wrote:That's at its very core a democratic attitude that others don't share. In fact being opposed to democracy always means that people should have no say in whether they want to live in a democracy or not.


Sure. But despite them having no choice, it doesn't stop them having a preference which was my point.

I really don't see why any Western country would want to emulate China. There are better East Asian options, if you're a fan of that model.


They should be emulating the things I highlighted. There are other things I believe we should be emulating like construction, family ties, diet, legislation etc... and perhaps private property but that is more divisive . But most definitely those four things I highlighted especially given they are four MAJOR issues we currently have in the West that China have a better record of. You can say, why use China as a reference point and not another Asian nation. Well the topic is China and I don't see why it matters. But even so, I am not saying the West should be China. They should use the things they do well and emulate them. Politically I support the Nordic Model and that is another thing the West should emulate I will add.
#15181653
B0ycey wrote:But most definitely those four things I highlighted especially given they are four MAJOR issues we currently have in the West that China have a better record of.


Well I completely disagree, I see no reason why my country should emulate China in any of those matters, as unspecific as they are.

B0ycey wrote:You can say, why use China as a reference point and not another Asian nation. Well the topic is China and I don't see why it matters. But even so, I am not saying the West should be China. They should use the things they do well and emulate them. Politically I support the Nordic Model and that is another thing the West should emulate I will add.


Other East Asian countries are at a higher stage of development. They are better models and more relevant to us. That's not meant to diss China.
#15181654
B0ycey wrote:Sure. But despite them having no choice, it doesn't stop them having a preference which was my point.


It's fine to have a preference, but funnily enough the same people always make claims such as "the Chinese people don't want democracy", as if the opinion of the people was of any relevance to that question, in fact it must necessarily be irrelevant to them.
#15181656
Rugoz wrote:Well I completely disagree, I see no reason why my country should emulate China in any of those matters, as unspecific as they are.


You don't think the West needs to address homelessness, production, economic disparity or corruption. OK Rugoz. :lol:

Other East Asian countries are at a higher stage of development. They are better models and more relevant to us. That's not meant to diss China.


As I said, the topic is China. I see no issue using them as a reference. I am not a user that always has to look for an alternative because to do otherwise gives China credit. Also I have not said China is perfect. But they have done certain things better than us and I am not afraid to say it how it is.
#15181658
B0ycey wrote:You don't think the West needs to address homelessness, production, economic disparity or corruption. OK Rugoz. :lol:



As I said, the topic is China. I see no issue using them as a reference. I am not a user that always has to look for an alternative because to do otherwise gives China credit. Also I have not said China is perfect. But they have done certain things better than us and I am not afraid to say it how it is.


We address it and some do it better and some do it worse. The average European and American statistics are way better. If we used China ways to count EU or US statistics of poverty or homelessness then we would be at almost 0 but we have higher bars. Disparity and inequality wise the store is mostly the same that our GINI indexes are better. Freedom of speech or press we are way higher. Corruption we are way better. Production we are also way more productive per hour worked.

Those things are a problem in general but Chinese solutions will have trouble with implementation in open way more developed societies.
#15181660
You need a scientific study to understand reasons behind support for CCP.

Anyway, my assumptions is that people mostly complain about conditions when economy goes downward. Some countries are both poor and authoritarian, so people realize that a little bit of democracy would bring some prosperity. That is not the case in China. With a population of 1,4 billion people and massive workforce, all China does is producing and selling. That simple thing changed lives of tens of millions of Chinese people. China has an absolute population advantage as long as it remains loyal to market economy. People do not receognize democracy deficit.
#15181661
JohnRawls wrote:We address it and some do it better and some do it worse. The average European and American statistics are way better. If we used China ways to count EU or US statistics of poverty or homelessness then we would be at almost 0 but we have higher bars. Disparity and inequality wise the store is mostly the same that our GINI indexes are better. Freedom of speech or press we are way higher. Corruption we are way better. Production we are also way more productive per hour worked.

Those things are a problem in general but Chinese solutions will have trouble with implementation in open way more developed societies.


@JohnRawls, you won't see homelessness on the streets in Beijing unlike say San Francisco because if you need a home and ask for one in China you will get one. Production has gone to China from the West and we have spent as long as I have been on PoFo moaning about that, the gap between rich and Poor in the West is another topic that comes up all the time on here and in China corruption is being dealt far better than in the West given EVEN if you are a high CCP member and are caught, you are spending time doing hard labor. For example in 2008, China wouldn't have bailed out corrupt bankers and reward them with government taxation to counteract their act. They would have let the banks go bust and I expect put the bankers in prison indefinitely.
#15181662
We can say that embracing market economy brings Chinese government out of group of worst authoritarian regimes. Chinese government allows free trade, free movement and different lifestyles.

It is just Chinese state is too large, so does Scandinavian countries. But it doesn't own means of production completely. Chinese government is comparable to Swedish government.
#15181666
Istanbuller wrote:Chinese government is comparable to Swedish government.


The Swedish left-centrist government that recently collapsed, ousted by an alliance of a further left and harder right parties?

Yes, the CCP is notorious for letting democratic pluralism undermine their reign :). I don't necessarily disagree with their assessment that if such divisions existed, it would be exploited by hostile foreign powers.
#15181669
MadMonk wrote:The Swedish left-centrist government that recently collapsed, ousted by an alliance of a further left and harder right parties?

Yes, the CCP is notorious for letting democratic pluralism undermine their reign :).

Yes, but in terms of economic viewpoint they are very alike.

I don't necessarily disagree with their assessment that if such divisions existed, it would be exploited by hostile foreign powers.

CCP is lucky that there isn't anybody who have balls to fight China. Structural changes come with foreign intervention. Let me give you an example from my country. Turkey was a closed country just like North Korea until 1950. On that year, we had our first democratic elections to join NATO. We just got another intervention in 1960 to meet American demands in order to get foreign aid. In 1962, we had another one. Turkey was a key country in 1962 Cuban missles crisis. In 1980, we had one too. That was for transition from closed economy to market economy. :D

Image
#15181689
Rugoz wrote:Where the fuck did I say that? Point is, to my knowledge China doesn't do any of those things better than my country. If anything it's other countries I consider to be role models in certain aspects.


Well then you need to research it better Rugoz. Although you did say that inadvertently given you challenged me saying just that when I said we should be more like China on those points specifically.

The only thing I can take from that is some users will refuse to acknowledge Chinas achievements even if GDP, growth figures, homeless rates and crime and punishment figures that are better than the West show that and are so bleeding obvious it shouldn't be challenged but known as fact anyway.
#15181716
B0ycey wrote:Well then you need to research it better Rugoz. Although you did say that inadvertently given you challenged me saying just that when I said we should be more like China on those points specifically.


"inadvertently"? What the fuck is that supposed to mean.

B0ycey wrote:The only thing I can take from that is some users will refuse to acknowledge Chinas achievements even if GDP, growth figures, homeless rates and crime and punishment figures that are better than the West show that and are so bleeding obvious it shouldn't be challenged but known as fact anyway.


The only thing obvious on that list are growth figures, but it's also plain obvious that "the West" cannot replicate those, for obvious reasons.

As for the rest, I suggest you do some fucking research and stop equating the West with the United States while you're at it.
#15181719
Rugoz wrote:"inadvertently"? What the fuck is that supposed to mean.



The only thing obvious on that list are growth figures, but it's also plain obvious that "the West" cannot replicate those, for obvious reasons.

As for the rest, I suggest you do some fucking research and stop equating the West with the United States while you're at it.


Its alright Rugoz. I understand English isn't your first language so I can appreciate you might need me to dumb it down for you. Also, there is no point me stating the obvious but if you're happy with being landlocked and in essence at the mercy of the EU and just can't appreciate that China might have done something right while we are at it, I am not really in the mood to educate you given you were rude.
#15181722
B0ycey wrote:Its alright Rugoz. I understand English isn't your first language so I can appreciate you might need me to dumb it down for you. Also, there is no point me stating the obvious but if you're happy with being landlocked and in essence at the mercy of the EU and just can't appreciate that China might have done something right while we are at it, I am not really in the mood to educate you given you were rude.


#15181724
For one thing, I would be really careful with any stats coming out of China. They not only lack transparency, they have a history for laying a thumb on the proverbial scales.

For another, I've written the problems facing China 3 or 4 times, and the fan boys never respond...

One of those things is that China is trapped in a real estate bubble they made.

The West tried to bring China into the fold, and while they took what we gave them, they have stopped playing ball. They are running scared, and have damn good reason to be scared.
#15181725
late wrote:For one thing, I would be really careful with any stats coming out of China. They not only lack transparency, they have a history for laying a thumb on the proverbial scales.

For another, I've written the problems facing China 3 or 4 times, and the fan boys never respond...

One of those things is that China is trapped in a real estate bubble they made.


The real estate 'bubble' (quotes because in conventional usage, often suggestion of a bubble implies that it will pop, and if it doesn't, it is not really a 'bubble') seems to be a result of supply and demand factors, largely. Moreover, it is not analogous to the Japanese bubble, which is sorta the poster child of real estate bubbles. In Japan, it was wild speculation on land, by players across the economy, up to large corporations and various institutions including universities, etc. There is still much land which is held by such entities, which has never come close to recouping its value.

In China, there is much private speculation on real estate. Many private Chinese have been buying apartments as investments, because the believe the high historic gains will continue. In addition, the development of Chinese cities (including rising incomes) also fuels demand for real estate.

So you know, the rental market in China is a different story. I rented nice, downtown apartments for around $230 a month in China.

The government is rapidly building new housing complexes all over the place. The sale of these properties is one of the main methods of local government finance. The local government reaps the profits from the sale of new apartments.

(If you are keeping track, construction of new units means increased supply. Moreover, real estate is very much subject to chronic supply shortage due to natural factors, as we see often in the 'West'; though in the 'West' it is often also augmented by factors like zoning laws, land-use regulation, building codes, etc., which artificially decrease supply further--to the benefit of landlords and to the angst of the peasant classes.)

I have been and am still skeptical of the notion that there really is a genuine bubble.


On a side note, this whole thread has been a terrific exhibition of Western propaganda on China falling completely flat in the face of insights from people who actually know shit about shit with respect to China.


The West tried to bring China into the fold, and while they took what we gave them, they have stopped playing ball. They are running scared, and have damn good reason to be scared.


Lol, the altruistic 'West' just wants to help China along. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Literally that does not meet the laugh test :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Do you believe this shit you wrote? Damn, it is one thing to be naive, but you are clearly thoroughly brainwashed as well with respect to this subject.
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