In China, unlike America, political legitimacy is built on competence and experience - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues in the People's Republic of China.

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#15181271
Rugoz wrote:Well there's a place called Taiwan that is culturally Chinese and at the same time has a vibrant democracy that is open and transparent. Sorry for mentioning it :D.


It doesn't matter. I don't mind discussing Taiwan.
Let me give my opinion first: I don't think Taiwan's democracy is vibrant.

In Chinese mainland, we often say a word, "Practice is the sole criterion for testing truth." Let's look at the results of democracy in Taiwan.

Economically, Taiwan used to be one of the four most dynamic regions in Asia. The other three were S.Korea, Singapore and HongKong. Since Taiwan's so-called democratization, its economic level has gradually opened up a gap with the other three regions. Almost all of Taiwan's modern infrastructure and industries were completed before democratization, which failed to bring economic benefits to its people.

Fortunately, Chinese mainland's high-speed economic development and huge market saved Taiwan. In 2020, Taiwan's exports to Chinese mainland amounted to US $151 billion 452 million, accounting for 43.9% of Taiwan's total exports. The Chinese mainland has always been the largest export market and the largest source of surplus in Taiwan.

Politically, democratization has caused extreme divisions and antagonism among the people of Taiwan. The green DPP and the blue KMT, as well as their supporters, have been engaged in all kinds of fights on almost all political issues (even mass fights in the parliament, physically).

Just few days ago, in order to solve the problem of vaccine shortage in Taiwan, an entrepreneur with a blue background decided to donate 5 million doses of Pfizer-BNT vaccine to the government, but his request was blocked by the green government for more than a month because the DPP was afraid that the entrepreneur might participate in the general election in the future. Is this a vibrant democracy?

Taiwan's DPP government won the election by relying on its anti China policy, but it imported American ractopamine pork and bought a lot of American weapons (Taiwan is the largest buyer of American weapons in the world) regardless of the public's opposition. Is this a vibrant democracy?

To sum up, democracy has not brought any benefits to Taiwan people except legalizing homosexuality. On the contrary, because of the extreme Anti China policy of its elected government, Taiwan people have to live in the shadow of war and continue to use their taxes to buy American weapons.
#15181297
Meanwhile, China dumps sewage into the ocean causing dead zones and algea blooms.

Way to go CCP. You dumb fucks.

Sounds like global incompetence to me. Communist with "Chinese characteristics" is pure shit, literally.
Last edited by Rancid on 17 Jul 2021 15:09, edited 1 time in total.
#15181319
ThingkingPanda wrote:Economically, Taiwan used to be one of the four most dynamic regions in Asia. The other three were S.Korea, Singapore and HongKong. Since Taiwan's so-called democratization, its economic level has gradually opened up a gap with the other three regions. Almost all of Taiwan's modern infrastructure and industries were completed before democratization, which failed to bring economic benefits to its people.


You don't know what you're talking about. Taiwan's economic growth has been spectacular since democratization. It surpassed both Japan and South Korea in GDP per capita (PPP) and of course its GDP per capita is much higher than that of China, 3-4 times higher in fact (~$60k vs $17k).

ThingkingPanda wrote:Fortunately, Chinese mainland's high-speed economic development and huge market saved Taiwan. In 2020, Taiwan's exports to Chinese mainland amounted to US $151 billion 452 million, accounting for 43.9% of Taiwan's total exports. The Chinese mainland has always been the largest export market and the largest source of surplus in Taiwan.


China has 1.4bn people while Taiwan has 23m. Obviously China's economy is much bigger and therefore Taiwan is dependent on it to a great extent given its close proximity. That holds for all small countries. My country for example (Switzerland) is very dependent on the EU as an export market.

ThingkingPanda wrote:Politically, democratization has caused extreme divisions and antagonism among the people of Taiwan. The green DPP and the blue KMT, as well as their supporters, have been engaged in all kinds of fights on almost all political issues (even mass fights in the parliament, physically).


What you consider "extreme divisions and antagonism" (no doubt the CCP media depict it as being particularly bad) is a healthy and necessary public discourse for others. Taiwan has no need to make citizens disappear, to send them to labor or reeducation camps or to torture or execute them. China does all those things to enforce social cohesion, or rather to maintain an appearance thereof.

ThingkingPanda wrote:Just few days ago, in order to solve the problem of vaccine shortage in Taiwan, an entrepreneur with a blue background decided to donate 5 million doses of Pfizer-BNT vaccine to the government, but his request was blocked by the green government for more than a month because the DPP was afraid that the entrepreneur might participate in the general election in the future. Is this a vibrant democracy?


I don't know the details of this, but AFAIK it was the deal of China's Fosun that prevented Taiwan from buying vaccines from Biontech in the first place.

ThingkingPanda wrote:Taiwan's DPP government won the election by relying on its anti China policy, but it imported American ractopamine pork and bought a lot of American weapons (Taiwan is the largest buyer of American weapons in the world) regardless of the public's opposition. Is this a vibrant democracy?


You are misinformed. Polls show that 57% of Taiwanese are in favour of major American weapon sales while only 33% are not (https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4019392). The Taiwanese value their independence, in fact according to polls only 12.5% of Taiwanese want reunification with China (https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3951560). Unfortunately only American weapons can guarantee Taiwan's de facto independence, at least for the time being.

ThingkingPanda wrote:To sum up, democracy has not brought any benefits to Taiwan people except legalizing homosexuality.


Compared to China the people of Taiwan are much richer, have greater life expectancy, have a government that is less corrupt (according to transparency international) and enjoy a multitude of civil and political rights.

The Taiwanese themselves are generally supportive of democracy. 88% say democracy is the best form of government (https://www.brookings.edu/articles/taiw ... challenge/).
#15181363
Rancid wrote:Meaning, China dumps sewage into the ocean causing dead zones and algea blooms.

Way to go CCP. You dumb fucks.

Sounds like global incompetence to me. Communist with "Chinese characteristics" is pure shit, literally.



Here is full of negative and even malicious criticism of China and the CPC.
Few people think about why such an "evil" CPC still has the support of 1.4 billion Chinese people.
I'm trying to tell you about China's advantages and why we support the CPC.

1. China persists in socialism, but doesn't exclude capitalism.
China persists in the leadership of the CPC, but doesn't exclude other parties from supervising the govt.
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#15181367
3. The policies of the China govt are in keeping with the aspiration of the people. For example, abolishing agricultural taxes, eliminating poverty, giving preferential treatment to ethnic minorities, and actively providing disaster relief…

4. China's leadership selection system. The selection of China's senior leaders will take decades to examine, and no interest group can control it.

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#15181368
5. The "whole country system" . If the China govt wants to do anything that we think is important, we can almost succeed because we can use the financial, human and material resources of the whole country to do it without any hindrance. In order to treat the COVID19 patients in Wuhan, we have built a large modern hospital in 10 days.

https://youtu.be/OWp6vSHFG4M
#15181369
6. The new generation of young people is becoming the pillars of China. In China's aerospace, nuclear energy, electronics, chips, high-speed rail and other fields, the average age of main force is only 39.4 years old, and 40% of them are returned students abroad .

7. China has the most complete industrial system in the world. From making a needle to making an aircraft carrier, from design to finished product, we don't need any help from other countries if we want to. However, we prefer international cooperation.

8. China has huge financial stocks. China has nearly $4 trillion in reserves and $2.1 trillion in US debt. The China govt's fiscal surplus, bank deposits and other reserves amount to about 8 trillion RMB.

9. China has an independent and innovative Internet ecosystem. Sina, WeChat, Taobao, Alipay, Jingdong, Meituan, DIdi...
These amazing enterprises in a very short period of time to create many unique business models and great value.

10. China has a rare ability of macro-control. The Asian financial crisis and the subprime mortgage crisis made by the US didn't make impact on China. And the possible crisis in China itself has been quickly reduced.

11. China has a huge market. We can drive the market by self consumption. At the same time, China can submerge markets that we think are harmful.

12. China is good at long-term planning. China has implemented 13 five-year plans. "One belt, One road", may be a 50 years plan. The ability to anticipate and presuppose can effectively deal with any crisis.
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#15181371
13. Good govt decisions are handed down from generation to generation. In China, "serving the people" and "reform and opening up" have been in effect for decades. The "five foreign policies of peaceful coexistence" put forward by former Premier Zhou Enlai are still China's diplomatic principles. This is the embodiment of a trustworthy and responsible country.

14. With the development of China in the past 70 years, it has not developed in one field, but in all fields.
In every field, China is definitely the most potential, if not the best in the world.

In this forum, people are keen to talk about various doctrines, ideologies and political views. Many people ridicule and even hate China's political system. They tend to regard the 1.4 billion Chinese as no-face slaves. They think that we are all supporters of fanatical dictators, and we have no soul and thoughts of our own. I just want to say to these people, you are wrong.

Since the end of the Qing Dynasty in China, the Chinese have opened the most incredible social experiment in the world. We tried constitutional monarchy, parliamentary system, presidential system, republican system and almost all modern democratic systems. Finally, we chose the socialist system led by the Communist Party of China.

Over the past 70 years, the CPC has transformed China from a backward and semi colonial agricultural country into an advanced and independent industrial country, becoming the second largest economy in the world, with the average life expectancy rising from 35 to 77 years.

Isn't any political system designed to make its country strong and its people live a good life?

I love China, I support the CPC.
I can't represent all 1.4 billion Chinese, but I think most Chinese people are like me.
China is old and young, we are hopeful about the future.

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#15181372
@ThingkingPanda Thanks I did not know the CCP consults with other parties the system is working well

giving preferential treatment to ethnic minorities


Sending them to deathcamps, where rape, medical experiments and organharvesting happens. Many do not believe this claims like in WW2 nobody believed in deathcamps until allied forces liberated them.
#15181380
If ya can't blind them with your brilliance bury them in your BS...

China has been expanding, and trying to expand for a very long time. In the 1950s, they conquered Bhutan. Recently they tried to expand on the border with India. Which was weird, because the land itself is useless. Do I need to mention Tibet, or the Uigurs?

They've decided the South China Sea is theirs, ignoring international law.

They tried to invade Vietnam, some time ago. What they didn't know was that the Vietnamese have long memories, and knew conquest is in Chinese DNA. Vietnam was ready, and humiliated them. Which is a basic truth here, you have to be ready, or else.

One of the bits of propaganda was about the crash of 2008. They were part of that. Unlike the West, they still are. They didn't escape, the government dumped many billions keeping that bubble from bursting.

This is something I've said about other countries (mostly the USA)... Realpolitik carries with it the seeds of it's own destruction.
#15181386
ThingkingPanda wrote:2. China's "mix-suitable" economic model is rare in the world. China is neither a complete public ownership economy nor a complete market economy. This mix-suitable mode is very effective.
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Chinese model worked because the starting point was so low. The path that China took is not special because many of your neighbours did the same. Some countries did it faster (Korea,Taiwan, Singapoor etc). Others did it slower a bit or are stuck somewhere. Bottom line being we know where this is headed to. At a certain point the growth will slow once GDP per capita nominal reaches the middle income gap threshold. After that further reform are needed which most countries fail at. In Korea it required the autocrat to be litteraly killed by his intelligence chief, in Singapore it required transparency and legal reforms with full enforcement of rule of law, Taiwan never managed to complete those reforms and are stuck in a process of political and social turmoil.

While it is hard to say where that point is since it shifts all the time, but China will undoubtedly reach it by the end of 2020s. May be earlier as we see the economic growth slowing down.

The sad part about this is that Europe and US are pulling away in the wellbeing department and the world is not equalising. 2 or more percent growth in US or Europe basically adds 1000 or more to the GDP per capita numbers. Much more actually. That is equivalent to China growing 10+ percent which it hasn't for a long time with only exception being the lockdown quarters year on year.
#15181393
The mere fact China started so low and became the second biggest economy is an achievement not a negative surely?

At this moment in time @JohnRawls, I don't think China even need to remain in the free market. They have the production and a market of 2bn people with or without the rest of the world, the West are merely the warehouse. They also currently have GDP and growth figures that the West can only dream of and trying to suggest that this is going to be devastating for China is ignoring that the West hasn't reached a solid digit growth figure for a sustainable period of time since before 2008 and that is like 13 years ago now and I expect China will do just as well if that happens to them now. I also think the West needs to stop kidding itself. Their market should be emulating what China is doing and not trying to think they have something better. They don't. We lost the advantage when we sent our production to China for a quick profit and I would say the reason we cannot compete with their growth today is simply because wealth creation is down to production and what we have is consumer led economy. That is why Germany is today the big fish in Europe. They didn't pack their production to Asia and now are better for it.
#15181394
B0ycey wrote:The mere fact China started so low and became the second biggest economy is an achievement not a negative surely?

At this moment in time @JohnRawls, I don't think China even need to remain in the free market. They have the production and a market of 2bn people with or without the rest of the world, the West are merely the warehouse. They also currently have GDP and growth figures that the West can only dream of and trying to suggest that this is going to be devastating for China is ignoring that the West hasn't reached a solid digit growth figure for a sustainable period of time since before 2008 and that is like 13 years ago now and I expect China will do just as well if that happens to them now. I also think the West needs to stop kidding itself. Their market should be emulating what China is doing and not trying to think they have something better. They don't. We lost the advantage when we sent our production to China for a quick profit and I would say the reason we cannot compete with their growth today is simply because wealth creation is down to production and what we have is consumer led economy. That is why Germany is today the big fish in Europe. They didn't pack their production to Asia and now are better for it.


It is an achievement and an expected one.

Your understanding is that China itself can exist in a vacuum and its own market. The pre middle income gap models are similar in nature, at least the modern versions that allow for fast growth out of supreme poverty. In a nutschell, you build basics for private property, some semblance of stability, security and infrastructure and open your market for foreign invest to flow in and build factories and other assortment of businesses. The problem of this model is that it is dependant on international demand and investment. So closing of the market or somehow removal of China from the global market will destroy the Chinese economy over night.

There are plenty of examples in history about this. Here are some:
1) Closed off Japan was not a good place economically speaking.
2) Closed off China was not a good place economically speaking.
3) If the above examples are not to your liking then how about all of the communist block during the cold war? Is it sufficient in size? It was not a good place economically speaking.

There is literally nothing good that can come out of China closing its own market either by itself or through some kind of economic war by US or any other place.

Modern economies are far more complex compared to what they used to be. Historically there were 2-3 countries that literally dominated more than 1/4th of global production at certain times of history. I think at the height, the British empire accounted more than 50% of global production. US after WW2 was above 25% at certain points. All those societies had problems and massive ones when they had interruptions within the global markets of their times usually due to bad relations or wars. Another aspect to this is the wellbeing component that can vaguely measured by gdp per capita figures. For example the SU didn't loose the cold war because it lost some war, it lost in the well being department and people just lost faith in the system since it became a dead end with the Western bloc countries living 3-4-5-6 times richer and no amount of censorship and propaganda was able to hide that. Soviet Union and its sattelites states had far more scope and scale compared to the current China also.
#15181398
I didn't say that China should shut itself off from the world @JohnRawls, they would of course need to trade. What I said at this moment in time I don't think they need the free market. That is they could cut themselves away from our markets and then focus on their own market instead given there is potential there. At the moment the Chinese aren't consumers like the West as they are frugal but signs are changing and there is at least a growing market there which they could easily improve on.

When you have a market that relies on someone else's labor, who has the advantage. The exporter or the importer?
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