How will the US pay back its debt? - Page 9 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Everything from personal credit card debt to government borrowing debt.

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#15203508
Lurkers, please make a note of the fact, that not one person has come forward with a plan to pay *off* the US national debt.
I take this to mean that they can't think of a way to have a surplus and not destroy the economy.
I take that to mean that I'm right that it is impossible to pay-off the debt with a surplus. Flatly, impossible.
I take this to mean that the US will have to keep rolling the debt over forever.
MMTers assert that the US will never have to pay high interest rates on its bonds, because it can sell them to the Fed. or just spend dollars into the economy like Pres. Lincoln did.
I take this to mean the the US debt is not a debt, it is just assets of the people.
#15203509
Steve_American wrote:Lurkers, please make a note of the fact, that not one person has come forward with a plan to pay *off* the US national debt.
I take this to mean that they can't think of a way to have a surplus and not destroy the economy.
I take that to mean that I'm right that it is impossible to pay-off the debt with a surplus. Flatly, impossible.
I take this to mean that the US will have to keep rolling the debt over forever.
MMTers assert that the US will never have to pay high interest rates on its bonds, because it can sell them to the Fed. or just spend dollars into the economy like Pres. Lincoln did.
I take this to mean the the US debt is not a debt, it is just assets of the people.

This also means that those right-wingers who want to pay off the national debt actually want to hand all of their money over to the government. Rather ironic, really. Lol.
#15203614
Oh Potemkin. Would that you were running the Democratic party.

(Realizing that they are far to right wing for you... But still.....)
#15203626
I think I said this in this thread. The US doesn't have to pay off its debt, ever. If it can balance its budget and or continue to grow the economy... it's all good. Inflation will diminish the scale of the debt in these scenarios. Another thing that helps the US is that fact that it is still a place where freedom to do business is strong.

PRINT BABY PRINT!
Come on, come one!
PRINT BABY PRINT!
Come on, come one!
PRINT BABY PRINT!
Come on, come one!

Side note, the US gov owes me as I hold some of their bonds. :eek:
#15203632
BlutoSays wrote:No because eventually confidence is lost in the USD and then we start to look like Venezuela or Greece.


You know your boy Trump and his MAGA morons are working towards exactly this right?
#15203633
Steve_American wrote:I take this to mean the the US debt is not a debt, it is just assets of the people.


I'm no economist but I'm pretty sure debts are not assets.

If the US borrows money to build a bridge Americans don't own that bridge, essentially the lenders do until the debt is paid off.

If you look at the rising cost of homes, food, and basically everything, the stagnating incomes, and the rising debts of government and Americans personally it's pretty clear that America is being hollowed out financially except for a very small % of very rich people.

This isn't even an American phenomenon, pretty much the same thing is happening in virtually every Western country. We're all fucked and China is laughing all the way to the bank.

At some point the government and individuals will be maxed out on debt and won't be able to borrow anymore, prices for necessities will be too expensive to afford, and people will riot or the system will buckle worse than Great Recession and politicians will be chased out of town.
#15203638
Steve_American wrote:I take this to mean that the US will have to keep rolling the debt over forever.
MMTers assert that the US will never have to pay high interest rates on its bonds, because it can sell them to the Fed. or just spend dollars into the economy like Pres. Lincoln did.
I take this to mean the the US debt is not a debt, it is just assets of the people.


If interest rates can never go high again because every country and every household is maxed out on credit then continued low interest borrowing will just create more bubbles, and bubbles pop. We're fucked.

It's been over a decade that interest rates have been really low. Housing prices have exploded, people can barely afford them. And how fucked is the economy if interest rates go up to 3-4%? Maybe oil prices skyrocket for some unpredictable some reason. There's a reason why we kiss the butts of the Saudis, they hold the economy of every country by the balls. They could create a recession tomorrow and keep it there as long as they want until NATO is forced to declare war.
#15203641
Unthinking Majority wrote:If the US borrows money to build a bridge Americans don't own that bridge, essentially the lenders do until the debt is paid off.


The interesting thing about this statement is that typically bonds are not written against specific physical assets like bridges. Meaning, bonds are general loans.

Unthinking Majority wrote:
If interest rates can never go high again because every country and every household is maxed out on credit then continued low interest borrowing will just create more bubbles, and bubbles pop. We're fucked.

It's been over a decade that interest rates have been really low. Housing prices have exploded, people can barely afford them. And how fucked is the economy if interest rates go up to 3-4%? Maybe oil prices skyrocket for some unpredictable some reason. There's a reason why we kiss the butts of the Saudis, they hold the economy of every country by the balls. They could create a recession tomorrow and keep it there as long as they want until NATO is forced to declare war.


It's all good man. don't wooooooooooooooooorrrry about it. You worry too much.
#15203661
Rancid wrote:The interesting thing about this statement is that typically bonds are not written against specific physical assets like bridges. Meaning, bonds are general loans.



It's all good man. don't wooooooooooooooooorrrry about it. You worry too much.

#15203939
Unthinking Majority wrote:I'm no economist but I'm pretty sure debts are not assets.

If the US borrows money to build a bridge Americans don't own that bridge, essentially the lenders do until the debt is paid off.

If you look at the rising cost of homes, food, and basically everything, the stagnating incomes, and the rising debts of government and Americans personally it's pretty clear that America is being hollowed out financially except for a very small % of very rich people.

This isn't even an American phenomenon, pretty much the same thing is happening in virtually every Western country. We're all fucked and China is laughing all the way to the bank.

At some point the government and individuals will be maxed out on debt and won't be able to borrow anymore, prices for necessities will be too expensive to afford, and people will riot or the system will buckle worse than Great Recession and politicians will be chased out of town.

UM,
You are just totally wrong, and I explained it recently if not there.

I'll explain it again.
. . . When a bank make a loan on a house, the borrower has a debt, but the bank has an asset.
Why don't you realize that when bank bundled some of those assets and sold them, that the buyer was buying an asset? They were called 'Mortgage Backed Securities'.
.
#15203941
Unthinking Majority wrote:[highlight=yellow]If interest rates can never go high again[/highlight] because every country and every household is maxed out on credit then continued low interest borrowing will just create more bubbles, and bubbles pop. We're fucked.

It's been over a decade that interest rates have been really low. Housing prices have exploded, people can barely afford them. And how fucked is the economy if interest rates go up to 3-4%? Maybe oil prices skyrocket for some unpredictable some reason. There's a reason why we kiss the butts of the Saudis, they hold the economy of every country by the balls. They could create a recession tomorrow and keep it there as long as they want until NATO is forced to declare war.

UM,
I didn't say that interest rates will never go high again. I said that the US Gov. will never have to pay high interest rates, unless it chooses to. This is because the US can sell bonds directly to the Fed. like it did in WWII. [See my old thread in which I proved this with an official paper put out by the Fed. itself.] Right now, this is against the law, but laws can be changed, like this law was in WWII. Or, the US Gov. can not issue bonds at all, and just spend dollars directly into the economy like Pres. Lincoln did in the Civil War.

But, hopefully the many central banks will stop raising interest rates to fight inflation, because 1] there is no evidence that this works, and 2] interest payments are just as much a cost for corps as is paying its workers more, and all (universal) costs can be passed on to the consumers as higher prices, which just adds to the inflation.
.
#15204568
John Adams called it correctly 230 years ago.

- - - - -

CHAPTER 16 | Document 15

John Adams, Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States
1787

Works 6:8--9

Suppose a nation, rich and poor, high and low, ten millions in number, all assembled together; not more than one or two millions will have lands, houses, or any personal property; if we take into the account the women and children, or even if we leave them out of the question, a great majority of every nation is wholly destitute of property, except a small quantity of clothes, and a few trifles of other movables. Would Mr. Nedham be responsible that, if all were to be decided by a vote of the majority, the eight or nine millions who have no property, would not think of usurping over the rights of the one or two millions who have?

Property is surely a right of mankind as really as liberty. Perhaps, at first, prejudice, habit, shame or fear, principle or religion, would restrain the poor from attacking the rich, and the idle from usurping on the industrious; but the time would not be long before courage and enterprise would come, and pretexts be invented by degrees, to countenance the majority in dividing all the property among them, or at least, in sharing it equally with its present possessors. Debts would be abolished first; taxes laid heavy on the rich, and not at all on the others; and at last a downright equal division of every thing be demanded, and voted.

What would be the consequence of this? The idle, the vicious, the intemperate, would rush into the utmost extravagance of debauchery, sell and spend all their share, and then demand a new division of those who purchased from them. The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If "Thou shalt not covet," and "Thou shalt not steal," were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free.

John Adams - Second President of the United States

The Founders' Constitution
Volume 1, Chapter 16, Document 15

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders ... 16s15.html

The University of Chicago Press

The Works of John Adams. Edited by Charles Francis Adams. 10 vols. Boston: Little, Brown & Co., 1850--56.

See also: Butterfield; Cappon; Warren-Adams Letters
#15204585
Actually what you call "human nature" does not even exist except in some biological aspects of existence. People are products of their times.

Adams was, of course, wrong. But he was one of the elites of his times. Well. Do we take everything Adams said as Gospel? I think not. Completely consistent with your quote, Adams also said this:

"...hereditary monarchy or aristocracy" are the "only institutions that can possibly preserve the laws and liberties of the people."


Do you believe this Bluto? You had better hope he was right because you live in a country wholly controlled by the aristocracy (wealth) today. This is not because...lib'rals. It is because both of our parties are right/center right parties and have constructed a government beholding to and existing to support the aristocracy. To this end they endeavor to give you and I just as much bread and circuses as necessary to keep us compliant. And it serves them that we have enough money to buy their stuff. This is why Trump and Biden wrote huge checks to the American people in the face of the pandemic. (A thing that would have appalled Adams by the way.)

So who gets to be the aristocracy Bluto? Millionaires? Billionaires?

Jefferson realized something that Adams was loathe to admit. Jefferson realized that our constitution and laws would have to be changed to suit the people. He said this many times. He was an advocate of amendment when necessary. You must consider my indoctrinated friend, that the first 10 amendments happened withing a year of the damn thing coming into existence.

This"human nature" you wish to forward was kind enough to give us trial by combat, slavery, women as property, and hereditary absolute monarchy. It killed homosexuals, burned witches and beat its children.

This "human nature" you espouse is usually just an excuse to justify treating other people abominably.

Finally Adams was wrong about this also:
What would be the consequence of this? The idle, the vicious, the intemperate, would rush into the utmost extravagance of debauchery, sell and spend all their share, and then demand a new division of those who purchased from them.


Well it didn't happen. The US taxed the wealthy at 90% in the past as was still the greatest economy in history. People did not flock for free stuff, they worked for it. During the great depression did people attack the government to get stuff? No. They elected a president who set out to give them jobs. They flocked to very hard work like the CCC was offering. Did they want a life of indolence? Hardly. Americans are the most productive people in the world.

I get you have been fucked by Fox News. What you need to do is sit down quietly sometime and think about what you are selling. It doesn't fly. And so, out of frustration you bluster, insult and denigrate those who are offering opposing opinions. I get your frustrations. Some people who you believe you should admire have led you wrong.

Maybe you should stop following Tucker Carlson, Hannity and Trump as start following...oh I don't know....Jesus?
#15204743
Drlee wrote:Actually what you call "human nature" does not even exist except in some biological aspects of existence. People are products of their times.

Adams was, of course, wrong. But he was one of the elites of his times. Well. Do we take everything Adams said as Gospel? I think not. Completely consistent with your quote, Adams also said this:



Do you believe this Bluto? You had better hope he was right because you live in a country wholly controlled by the aristocracy (wealth) today. This is not because...lib'rals. It is because both of our parties are right/center right parties and have constructed a government beholding to and existing to support the aristocracy. To this end they endeavor to give you and I just as much bread and circuses as necessary to keep us compliant. And it serves them that we have enough money to buy their stuff. This is why Trump and Biden wrote huge checks to the American people in the face of the pandemic. (A thing that would have appalled Adams by the way.)

So who gets to be the aristocracy Bluto? Millionaires? Billionaires?

Jefferson realized something that Adams was loathe to admit. Jefferson realized that our constitution and laws would have to be changed to suit the people. He said this many times. He was an advocate of amendment when necessary. You must consider my indoctrinated friend, that the first 10 amendments happened withing a year of the damn thing coming into existence.

This"human nature" you wish to forward was kind enough to give us trial by combat, slavery, women as property, and hereditary absolute monarchy. It killed homosexuals, burned witches and beat its children.

This "human nature" you espouse is usually just an excuse to justify treating other people abominably.

Finally Adams was wrong about this also:

Well it didn't happen. The US taxed the wealthy at 90% in the past as was still the greatest economy in history. People did not flock for free stuff, they worked for it. During the great depression did people attack the government to get stuff? No. They elected a president who set out to give them jobs. They flocked to very hard work like the CCC was offering. Did they want a life of indolence? Hardly. Americans are the most productive people in the world.

I get you have been fucked by Fox News. What you need to do is sit down quietly sometime and think about what you are selling. It doesn't fly. And so, out of frustration you bluster, insult and denigrate those who are offering opposing opinions. I get your frustrations. Some people who you believe you should admire have led you wrong.

Maybe you should stop following Tucker Carlson, Hannity and Trump as start following...oh I don't know....Jesus?


No, I admire those who make it on their own and don't live a life of jealousy and constantly blame others for their problems.

You on the other hand claim constantly to be a republican when everyone knows otherwise. Hint: if you are a republican, you don't constantly have to tell people you are.

Try reading "Conscience of a Conservative" by Barry Goldwater if you want to inform yourself.

What Adams is selling is certainly correct. The more the left asks for and receives, the more they want. This has NOTHING to do with Fox News. Stop injecting that in every argument out of laziness.

And YES, human nature does exist. What a moronic retort to state it doesn't or even try to soften its impact. Many people make poor decisions. Stop demanding everyone suffer the consequences for their poor decisions in life.

Try taxing wealth at 90% and you'll see how quickly this place turns to Venezuela while China becomes more capitalist thanks to the idiots in Washington DC. This is a global economy. Did you get the memo???

Stop demanding the gubmint does more and more to "fix" inequality, and it will naturally lessen. The more you demand govt does to fix things, the worse things get. Are you that dense that you can't identify this by now?
#15204872
Try reading "Conscience of a Conservative" by Barry Goldwater if you want to inform yourself.


I have read it many times. I have an autographed copy. I knew Barry Goldwater from childhood. His was the first campaign on which I volunteered. I have been in his home.

You, on the other hand, would have gotten nothing but scorn from Goldwater. You obviously do not understand his flavor of conservatism. You and your fellow big government Trumpists would have gotten nothing but the boot from him.

Play your game somewhere else. Nobody is buying your bullshit. You are not a conservative. You are not a patriot. You are a fascist.
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