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#13993367
Bill Clinton wrote:It's the economy, stupid


Recently we have seen the EU, and in particular Germany, attempting to impose strict fiscal rules on countries such as Greece in return for continued financial support. This has meant that the Greek people have lost a great deal of democratic control over their economy, and since running the economy is such an important function of government, it could easily be said that modern Greece is far less a democratic than it once was.

Many on the left blame Germany for these restrictions. They claim that the rules imposed by Germany are far too harsh, and are preventing any hope for recovery. Meanwhile the right points to how much Greece still needs to do in order to resolve it's long term structural deficit.

So has the EU, via the bailout conditions, made Greece undemocratic? To answer this, I'd first ask you to consider what happens to debtor nations when there is no major international body such as the EU to bail them out. It's not hard to see examples over recent years, we can look at both South American countries such as Argentina, and Asian countries such as South Korea.

In all cases, the market forced these countries to adopt harsh, sometimes even draconian, cutbacks. In some cases, democracy was completely subverted in order to pay the debts (see Naomi Klein's "Shock Therapy" for more detail). So the EU is not causing these economic restrictions - they should instead be blamed on the debts themselves.

From this, I'd draw the conclusion that incurring a substantial structural deficit within a democracy is morally wrong. Any form of debt imposes restrictions on the choices available to the next generation of voters - people who at the time the debt is incurred have no say whatsoever in elections due to being too young to vote. If the debt is substantial, then these restrictions become very harsh indeed - as we can see in Greece.

Of course, small levels of debt might be needed to cover ongoing running of a country - just as businesses may take out temporary loans in order to pay wages in the anticipation of future income. After all, it's not always easy to predict tax receipts with certainty. But that is quite different from planning an economy based on a deficit.

As far as I am concerned, countries should only plan for substantial deficits under two circumstances:

- When at war. A country defending it's very existence and the freedom of it's people may need to make compromises.

- When recovering from a natural disaster. If the natural disaster is of a temporary nature, then it makes a great deal of sense to me to incur debt in order to rebuild infrastructure, since in this case, rebuilding is so often an excellent investment for the country, and it's relatively easy to make accurate estimates of the value of infrastructure projects.

I know there are several other cases where many would claim governments should borrow substantially - I will address a couple of them.

- For investment in infrastructure. The theory here is that with the new infrastructure will come a stronger economy, which will allow debts to be repaid. The problem with this approach is that it ignores the possibility of corruption. It is far too easy for major companies to manipulate figures in order to make infrastructure appear far more promising than it is likely to be (see the book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman".) Politicians will take bribes, or merely succumb to lobbying, and plenty of dams, railroads and motorways are built at ruinous expense. These sort of investments are effectively business management decisions, and very few politicians have the requisite experience in business. I would see this case as the false justification behind a great deal of third world debt, as well as the debt of many Western nations such as Britain. It's much safer for the electorate to just reject the idea completely, rather than allow politicians free reign. Forcing politicians to decide spending only based on current government income should help concentrate their minds, and invest more carefully.

- To recover from recession. This is Keynsianism. The problem in this case is to easily identify whether the recession is caused by a short term problem, akin to a natural disaster (e.g. a bank crash), or whether there are deeper underlying causes to the recession (e.g. a failure to find a strategy to compete with cheap Asian imports). In the first case, then spending may be justified - however in the second, if a country has serious underlying economic weaknesses, then taking on debt will only delay adjustments that need to be made, and will eventually result in the country digging an ever deeper hole for itself (e.g. Greece). It's often quite difficult for most voters, even those who are more educated, to fully understand the underlying causes of a recession - especially when partisan journalists and politicians frequently do their best to muddy the waters. So in this case, taking on substantial debt is a gamble. The government is effectively saying "I am betting our children's freedom that this recession was only due to a short term weakness". I simply don't trust our politicians to make that kind of bet.

P.S. I expect some Libertarians might want to respond to this post. But I'd rather they didn't, since any debate as to the merits or otherwise of Libertarianism is likely to substantially derail any discussion about the primary subject of this post (government debt). You guys are welcome to make your own topics!
By Nunt
#13994618
cathartic moment wrote:Recently we have seen the EU, and in particular Germany, attempting to impose strict fiscal rules on countries such as Greece in return for continued financial support. This has meant that the Greek people have lost a great deal of democratic control over their economy, and since running the economy is such an important function of government, it could easily be said that modern Greece is far less a democratic than it once was.
They can democratically agree to follow Germany's fiscal rules. It wouldn't be democratic if Germany used force to make Greece follow its rules. But in this case the Greeks can either decide to accept the help and follow the rules, or take their chances on their own.
#13994634
Nunt wrote:They can democratically agree to follow Germany's fiscal rules. It wouldn't be democratic if Germany used force to make Greece follow its rules. But in this case the Greeks can either decide to accept the help and follow the rules, or take their chances on their own.


In which case they'd be thrown out of the EU, their economy would collapse, and they'd be presented with an even harsher set of rules by the IMF. Debt has left modern Greece with very few real choices.
By Nunt
#13994652
cathartic moment wrote:In which case they'd be thrown out of the EU, their economy would collapse, and they'd be presented with an even harsher set of rules by the IMF. Debt has left modern Greece with very few real choices.

The last sentence is of particular importance. They find themselves in a situation which really has 1 good option (take Germany's money) and several bad options ranging from leaving the EU and defaulting on all debts. But nowhere is the Greek democracy threathened. They could still choose one of the bad options should they want to.

Compare this to a create who faces a natural disaster, for example, Earthquake, Tsunami and Nuclear failure like in Japan. In practice, Japan doesn't have much choice than to clean up the mess the earthquake left behind and to clean up the radiation leak. They find themselves in a circumstance in which cleaning up is the best solution, although cleaning up will be very costly. But this doesn't limit Japan's democracy. These are just circumstances that frame political decision making, just like in Greece. Its not a desirable situation, but it doesnt have anything to do with democracy or lack thereof.

Democracy is threatened by external military invasion or internal political changes such as laws that give discretionary power to politicians. But in Greece, the democratic process is still there. People can still choose their leaders. Their choice is just framed within the reality they find themselves in.
#13994671
In the case of Japan's reactor, the restriction of options has been primarily imposed by nature (in the shape of a Tsunami). However there was a human component to the tragedy (poor design etc), and there is consensus that this human component should be fixed in the future (either by not creating nuclear reactors or by building better reactors).

However in the case of Greek debt, the restriction of options has been entirely imposed by man in the shape of debt. All I am arguing is that this human component is also wrong, and should also be fixed in the future (by avoiding incurring debt). So your example actually ties in quite nicely with my argument.

Whilst we're on the subject of restrictions on democracy imposed by man, another example would be the "restricted choice democracies " that can be found around the world. For example, there are states where voters can only vote for a single party, or where candidates have to be pre-approved (e.g. by Iran's ayatollahs). Currently I'd see Greece as being in a similar category.
By Baff
#13994942
Greece hasn't lost any democratic control because it hasn't been forced to take any loans.
It has chosen to.

It can choose not to.
It can choose to stop.
It can choose to default on those it has already taken.

There are consequences to all these actions, just as there are consequences for them to get an new loans. (Like surprise surprise, repaying existing loans before anyone will lend to you).

Greece has chosen, in my opinion, the safest option. To stick with the EU subsidies. I don't know how democratically a choice that was, but they did seem to have a couple of national elections right before doing so... so I might be quite hopeful.



For me the problem of debt and democracy is more structural.

If you will not be in power in 5/10 years time, why bother making any unpopular decisions.
why bother running a balanced budget? Or making cuts when you have no money?
Why not just get in debt?

Why not promise your elctorate more cake than anyone else promises. More drugs, more jobs, better working conditions, more rights. More of everything anyone likes.
The money doesn't need to be repaid until 10 years time, and when it does your opposition party will be in power and they will get blamed for it and you will get remembered for all the cake evryone ate in your reign.

But ten years on, the guys in power, If I stop ordering more cake for everyone, it will be me that took the cake away. So free cake for eceryone stays and I need to offer something more, something new on top to keep peoples intrest.
So now every year my budget is running over by even more. And instead of paying those debts off, I will renew the loan for the previous 10 years of unaffordable cake orgies..plus, I'll borrow the next ten years of the same level of cakes orgies, then I'll borrow enough to buy lemonade to go with all that cake so everyone knows i have improved things for them.


On and on and on.
As long as the electorate still responds to bribes and the creditors still believe we will repay.... on we go. And if the whole boom looks set to crash in my term of office, why then borrow more, delay the crash until the opposition party gets in.
On and on, on and on, and then one day, all the private investors say. "no way Jose". And suddenly everyone can see what a total pile of shit they have allowed their country to become.
By Nunt
#13994949
cathartic moment wrote:In the case of Japan's reactor, the restriction of options has been primarily imposed by nature (in the shape of a Tsunami). However there was a human component to the tragedy (poor design etc), and there is consensus that this human component should be fixed in the future (either by not creating nuclear reactors or by building better reactors).

However in the case of Greek debt, the restriction of options has been entirely imposed by man in the shape of debt. All I am arguing is that this human component is also wrong, and should also be fixed in the future (by avoiding incurring debt). So your example actually ties in quite nicely with my argument.

Whilst we're on the subject of restrictions on democracy imposed by man, another example would be the "restricted choice democracies " that can be found around the world. For example, there are states where voters can only vote for a single party, or where candidates have to be pre-approved (e.g. by Iran's ayatollahs). Currently I'd see Greece as being in a similar category.

Debt is not just an artificial something. It is also a natural restriction. Debt means that you have consumed more natural resources than you have produced. This is not something humans invented. You cannot eat 2 carrots when you only have 1. Of course, it would be great if germany paid for greece's carrots, in the same way that it would be great that germany would pay for japan's reactors.
#13995047
Baff wrote:Greece hasn't lost any democratic control because it hasn't been forced to take any loans.
It has chosen to.


Actually, Greek politicians chose to. And those politicians were elected by a previous generation of voters. Anyone in Greece who has just turned 18 (or is soon about to) is likely to spend most of their lives working to pay off the debts of their elders. And this younger generation has very little choice in the matter, which is exactly my point - one generation is imposing all this on another, and I find that to be morally wrong.

I also wouldn't restrict my judgement to Greece, although it is the most extreme example. I find the size of the debt that Labout has left to modern Britain to be wrong, and also the size of debt that Ireland incurred in trying to save it's banks. Consider Italy, which incurred huge debts during the 80's and early 90s. No one under 35 in Italy had any democratic say when that debt was first incurred. And yet now they see their country potentially facing ruin. I feel sorry for the young people of all these countries. As individuals, their best choice may be to leave... but if they do so in numbers then they put salvation even further out of reach for those that remain.

To me, the situation is similar to debt bondage - a tradition where children become slaves due to the debts of their parents. This aberration has been stamped out in much of the developed world, but still persists in parts of the third world.
By Baff
#13995139
And this is undemocratic?

That's how it works.
You elect your politicians and then they do (sucky) stuff.
Vote them out or have a revolution or refuse to pay your taxes or whatever.


Kids don't get to vote.

Those kids may not have elected to get that free schooling and healthcare, but they have hardly been non participants in where the money got spent.
The debts they will be repaying will be their own.

If I was alive 100 years ago I still wouldn't have got to vote on anything that my government spent it's money on, because ordinary citisens don't get to vote on that no matter how old they are.


There are also responsabilities that they may grow into. Such as looking after their elderly and their young when it is their turn. So if they want healthcare and pension provisions etc, while it might not be their fault, it might still be their responsability.

It's one thing to be able to blame the elder generation with righteous indignation, but at the end of the day, do you want your parents to starve or are you going to want to do something to prevent that?
#13995161
Baff wrote:And this is undemocratic?

That's how it works.


Then it should change.
User avatar
By Stormsmith
#13995233
cathartic moment wrote:- When at war. A country defending it's very existence and the freedom of it's people may need to make compromises.

Agreed, but the debt can be mitigated by selling war bonds in house (not available to foreign interests) and by increasing taxes. Tax cuts during 1 war is poor planning, multiple tax cuts during 2 wars is nuts.

And, imo, war spending is an open invitation to corruption. Have you forgot the pallets of cash that went missing in Iraq?


quote="cathartic moment"]In the case of Japan's reactor, the restriction of options has been primarily imposed by nature (in the shape of a Tsunami). However there was a human component to the tragedy (poor design etc), and there is consensus that this human component should be fixed in the future (either by not creating nuclear reactors or by building better reactors).[/quote]
The real problem was failing to maintain the reactors, and of a poor response in handling the aftermath. This was a private company that should have had the forsight to inspect and repair the reactors and insurance to cover the cost of an accident. Similarly, Katrina occured because of negligence. The problem had been reported some years before the event. BP was also a manmade disaster, and BP or its insurers should pick up the tab

cathartic moment wrote:Then it should change.

Most governments run a tab, just as most households do. People want housing, and need a mortgage. Basically, this is good for the economy (providing banks aren't giving loans and mortgages to people with no hope of repaying them. But many states must run a ballanced budget.

People must be sick of reading this: There are two sides to a ledger - debts and credits. Spending on capital investment, the infrastructure or real estate or education is usually good. Spending on pork gives you heartburn.
#13995501
Stormsmith wrote:Most governments run a tab, just as most households do. People want housing, and need a mortgage. Basically, this is good for the economy (providing banks aren't giving loans and mortgages to people with no hope of repaying them. But many states must run a ballanced budget.

People must be sick of reading this: There are two sides to a ledger - debts and credits. Spending on capital investment, the infrastructure or real estate or education is usually good. Spending on pork gives you heartburn.


My country has been recently been through over a decade of Labour government, where we were told much the same. This was the standard justification trotted out to justify government overspend. Never mind the figures - just look at all the pretty hospitals...

And yet now my country is left with a mountain of debt, proportionately far worse than, for example, the USA faces. I'm frankly fed up with it. Yes, we voted them out. But they are still there in the background, moaning about austerity measures that still fall some way short of a balanced budget, and hinting that they will bring the good times back if they're given just one more chance...

I don't trust them. "It's infrastructure therefore it's ok" is far too easy an excuse for politicians to make, and can be used to justify almost any excess. In business, managers would be expected to calculate return on investment, and their figures would be carefully checked by their superiors, by auditors and by shareholders. Most politicians wouldn't even know where to start when doing these things. There's simply no way to control spending when this justification is allowed. And when I look around, I can see that this phenomenon isn't confined to the UK - it's almost global. Politicians simply have no discipline in spending, and the only way to impose discipline is to force them to balance budgets.

After World War 2, the British government brought in a welfare state a background of post-war austerity. They didn't take out huge loans, they couldn't since our post-war debts were already so large. How? By making tough choices, deciding what was important for them.

And that's what government shouldn't be there for - making tough choices, not for pretending it can be all things to all people (aka New Labour). Running a balanced budget forces politicians to make choices, which to my mind is a good thing.
By Baff
#13995629
Stormsmith wrote:Most governments run a tab, just as most households do.


I might want to edit that statement a little.

Most governments run a tab, just as most households do these days.

But I can remember the days when most households did not run a tab.
When the very thought of running any kind of tab was considered socially irresponsable. Immoral even.

Now everyone is doing it. This social transformation occoured in a period of under 15 years.



Guess what, now we have a massive debt crisis.
Now there is a surprise.
#14256392
I think greece should do what all countries in debt they can't pay back should do.
Default on the debt.
The consequence of that is that the politicians won't be able to borrow money on people's behalf anymore
Sounds like a good deal
By Baff
#14256507
cathartic moment wrote:
Recently we have seen the EU, and in particular Germany, attempting to impose strict fiscal rules on countries such as Greece in return for continued financial support. This has meant that the Greek people have lost a great deal of democratic control over their economy, and since running the economy is such an important function of government, it could easily be said that modern Greece is far less a democratic than it once was.


LMAO. I misread that.

I read "and since ruining the economy is such an important function of government".
By Baff
#14256508
ronimacarroni wrote:I think greece should do what all countries in debt they can't pay back should do.
Default on the debt.
The consequence of that is that the politicians won't be able to borrow money on people's behalf anymore
Sounds like a good deal

Me too.

There is problem here however for those many many people whose livelihoods are dependant on the state sector. It's too big to fail.

Their govt operates at a deficit. It's not just in more debt than it can repay, it needs to borrow more or butt loads of extra people will be out on the street
An in order to borrow more.... it can't default.

When they have fixed their defecits, then they can default more easily.
User avatar
By Eran
#14256758
Democracy is entailed in having popular control over which of available options government should take.

Democracy isn't hampered by paucity of options, only by usurpation of the right to make the choice between available option by a body not answerable to the majority.
User avatar
By Stormsmith
#14256856
Stormsmith wrote: Most governments run a tab, just as most households do.


Baff wrote:I might want to edit that statement a little. Most governments run a tab, just as most households do these days. But I can remember the days when most households did not run a tab. When the very thought of running any kind of tab was considered socially irresponsable. Immoral even. Now everyone is doing it. This social transformation occoured in a period of under 15 years.

If I was to amend my statement it would be to say most households ran tab much of the time, with mortgages being a significant cause. Your idea that consumer debt wasn't an issue until 1998 is wrong. Society has a long history in money lending, and for usary.
User avatar
By Eran
#14257139
Usury? Really? In this day and age, when we face to consequences of excessively-low interest rates, and the uncontrolled borrowing they bring, does anybody still seriously worry about usury?

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