[The Immortal Goon]

So...capitalism is supposed to be the system where the owner throws his money away paying $100 per tree and communism is the system where the workers figure out their own livelihood and decide to pay themselves $10 a tree?

What the hell is going on with this analogy?

[Coyote]

So...capitalism is supposed to be the system where the owner throws his money away paying $100 per tree and communism is the system where the workers figure out their own livelihood and decide to pay themselves $10 a tree?

What the hell is going on with this analogy?

What?!?

In each scenario, the total cost is $1,000 for 100 trees planted.

The only difference is in the wages earned.

Hilarious.

[BATIK]

People don't want to work, if they can help it.

That is why Marxism fails.

Marxism isn't milquetoast welfarist capitalism.

[Leninist]

What?!?

In each scenario, the total cost is $1,000 for 100 trees planted.

The only difference is in the wages earned.

Hilarious.

WHAT the hell are you talking about!? capitalism is based on making as great a personal profit as possible, in what way are you explaining that a capitalist model of production would pay the workers more? Even if that were the case, in a communist system you might make fewer dollars, but the living standards would be better because the socialist system would provide lots of subsidized benefits to workers, like free food, housing, etc.,.

And the thing about people not wanting to work is completely untrue. People who consider their work fulfilling, as they would in a proper communist system, report high satisfaction with their lives. This trend of work being viewed as a negative part of life is a recent trend in today's youth in first world countries because of the lack of aforementioned fulfillment which comes from making a pathetic wage to further bulge the pockets of fat cats. If I told you you could live a reasonably comfy life working 6-7 hours at a job a few days a week, and safe in the knowledge that everything you produce will better you, you're countrymen and humanity as a whole, wouldn't you think of that as worth doing?

[Leninist]

It's quite simple.

Take a group of 10 people. Have them plant 100 trees, and pay each worker $10 for each tree they plant.

Take a second group of people. Have them plant 100 trees, and pay each worker $100 when all of the trees are planted.

And then tell me which system is better.

The second system is literally just wage labor capitalism. The first is not a style of payment which anyone other than maybe a co-op would use to pay people in capitalism. Neither is Marxism.

[KurtFF8]

It's quite simple.

Take a group of 10 people. Have them plant 100 trees, and pay each worker $10 for each tree they plant.

Take a second group of people. Have them plant 100 trees, and pay each worker $100 when all of the trees are planted.

And then tell me which system is better.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Perhaps you're confused about the terms "Communism" and "Capitalism"

[Coyote]

[
WHAT the hell are you talking about!? capitalism is based on making as great a personal profit as possible, in what way are you explaining that a capitalist model of production would pay the workers more? Even if that were the case, in a communist system you might make fewer dollars, but the living standards would be better because the socialist system would provide lots of subsidized benefits to workers, like free food, housing, etc.,.

And the thing about people not wanting to work is completely untrue. People who consider their work fulfilling, as they would in a proper communist system, report high satisfaction with their lives. This trend of work being viewed as a negative part of life is a recent trend in today's youth in first world countries because of the lack of aforementioned fulfillment which comes from making a pathetic wage to further bulge the pockets of fat cats. If I told you you could live a reasonably comfy life working 6-7 hours at a job a few days a week, and safe in the knowledge that everything you produce will better you, you're countrymen and humanity as a whole, wouldn't you think of that as worth doing?

Sure. All human beings would. That was my point.

[fuser]

So, you don't know what communism is, good to know.

[Leninist]

Sure. All human beings would. That was my point.

That's the greatest contradiction of capitalism, you don't get shit out of it for the work you put in! I'll admit, my generation, millennial's, are lazy and arrogant, but that's just the way we've been conditioned by capitalist propaganda about "the American Dream" and the counter productive self-esteem movement. Just a guess, and I may be wrong, but I think that you are probably a millennial to if you really think no one wants to work. Its just a matter of getting the youth work ethic back off the ground, and showing them that it has purpose. But historically, people want to work. In the great depression, some men killed themselves because they felt worthless without work to do. Its in our nature to be productive.

[Leninist]

So, you don't know what communism is, good to know.

There are more kinds of communism than you can shake a stick at. Some people say Jesus was preaching primitive communism. Plato's Republic is a possible example of the first theory about how a communist society might work. But as an almost criminal generalization, Communism is just a society with communal property and no classes. Doesn't even have to be Marxist. Stalinism certainly isn't the only kind.

[fuser]

I was referring to coyote.

or are you agreeing with his "tree" example as an example of communist and capitalist society.

[Leninist]

oh Well then I apologize. I thought that you were talking to me since you're post was right after mine with no quote. And god no. I'm still not sure exactly what aspects of economics that example really pertains to. It just seems to be different kinds of wage labor.

[fuser]

No, my post was right after Coyote's. But anyway, there is no confusion now.

[Leninist]

oh you are correct haha. I do not know what I had thought.

[Coyote]

WHAT the hell are you talking about!? capitalism is based on making as great a personal profit as possible, in what way are you explaining that a capitalist model of production would pay the workers more? Even if that were the case, in a communist system you might make fewer dollars, but the living standards would be better because the socialist system would provide lots of subsidized benefits to workers, like free food, housing, etc.,.

And the thing about people not wanting to work is completely untrue. People who consider their work fulfilling, as they would in a proper communist system, report high satisfaction with their lives. This trend of work being viewed as a negative part of life is a recent trend in today's youth in first world countries because of the lack of aforementioned fulfillment which comes from making a pathetic wage to further bulge the pockets of fat cats. If I told you you could live a reasonably comfy life working 6-7 hours at a job a few days a week, and safe in the knowledge that everything you produce will better you, you're countrymen and humanity as a whole, wouldn't you think of that as worth doing?

The fact that the above never materialized in Cuba is why Che ultimately left. He couldn't understand why the people didn't find their work fulfilling, and give it their all. He was a true communist, at heart. But virtually no one else was. And it's why he went back to fighting guerilla wars. Because he couldn't win the Communist peace.

As for me, I would be incredibly bored working only 6 or 7 hours a day. I do find my work fulfilling. But most people don't. After a while of working the 7 hour day, they'd begin to complain. They'd complain at 5 hours a day, or 3 hours a day.

It's just the way a lot of people are. The relative few who aren't like that, tend to be successful monetarily.

[Coyote]

Did you guys not understand the tree example?

I need 100 trees planted, for $1,000.

In one scenario, I will pay all 10 workers an equal $100 share to plant the trees, whereas in the other scenario I will pay $10 per tree, so that if one worker plants 50 trees, he'll receive $500 in compensation, so on and so forth.

It's a meritocracy, and I believe that the 100 trees will be planted faster under scenario 1, where the workers compete, than in scenario 2, in which they collaborate.

[KurtFF8]

Your tree example just doesn't make sense and doesn't really get you to where you think it gets you.

You simply say "I think it would work better in the other one." That's hardly a strong analogy to work with because it's based on some inkling that you have rather than any real analysis/theoretical understanding/observation of the real world.

It also seems that you are conflating "capitalism" with "meritocracy" here.

[Leninist]

The fact that the above never materialized in Cuba is why Che ultimately left. He couldn't understand why the people didn't find their work fulfilling, and give it their all. He was a true communist, at heart. But virtually no one else was. And it's why he went back to fighting guerilla wars. Because he couldn't win the Communist peace.

As for me, I would be incredibly bored working only 6 or 7 hours a day. I do find my work fulfilling. But most people don't. After a while of working the 7 hour day, they'd begin to complain. They'd complain at 5 hours a day, or 3 hours a day.

It's just the way a lot of people are. The relative few who aren't like that, tend to be successful monetarily.

That's because we are conditioned in capitalist society to not like work. we are trained to think "live for the weekend". Have you seen the commercials? "Its like everyone got together and said, if its good, lets do it on the weekend". Work is not supposed to be easy, or fun, its supposed to accomplish something. And we are told if its not fun, its not something we should want to do. I know it may be improper to use oneself as an example, but I am going to. Last night I volunteered to raise money for unicef, a charity. It wasn't fun, but lots of other people did it. We didn't complain, because we were there to do something we believe in, which we know will help people. And I firmly believe that we can create a society where most, if not everybody feels the same. It simply requires proper values being conditioned in young people, a bit of propaganda, and an accountable system of production.

Also, please provide some sort of back up to your assertion about Che.

[Leninist]

Did you guys not understand the tree example?

I need 100 trees planted, for $1,000.

In one scenario, I will pay all 10 workers an equal $100 share to plant the trees, whereas in the other scenario I will pay $10 per tree, so that if one worker plants 50 trees, he'll receive $500 in compensation, so on and so forth.

It's a meritocracy, and I believe that the 100 trees will be planted faster under scenario 1, where the workers compete, than in scenario 2, in which they collaborate.

And, as we've said, neither of those represent either communism or capitalism! Wage labor in most capitalist countries is based upon HOURLY wages. They pay based on how much you make in china, but that's usually around a dollar or two per item. They don't really do that in America. They just say, work for your hours or get fired. And that's quickly becoming one of capitalism's biggest contradictions, as work becomes less valued, people just try to avoid getting fired, which doesn't mean trying to work hard, just avoid your boss's wrath. In fact, the people who take that the most seriously are the immigrants, especially the illegal ones. They're the only thing keeping southern agriculture from collapsing.

[Coyote]

Also, please provide some sort of back up to your assertion about Che.

That is my sense, my conclusion, after studying the man and his life.