Let's try this again: I'm a hyper-capitalist, AMA, or come debate me - Page 6 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Workers of the world, unite! Then argue about Trotsky and Stalin for all eternity...
Forum rules: No one line posts please.
#15012367
The Goldpill wrote: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

"At this stage not much surprises me anymore. But perhaps the most surprising is the fact that many people, particularly economists, believe that we are perfectly rational."

The Science of Irrationality: Why We Humans Behave So Strangely


:)
#15012368
ingliz wrote:"At this stage not much surprises me anymore. But perhaps the most surprising is the fact that many people, particularly economists, believe that we are perfectly rational."

The Science of Irrationality: Why We Humans Behave So Strangely


:)


The article provides no reasoning behind that statement. He didn't say why.
The questions Mr. @ingliz , don't forget the questions. :excited:
#15012369
@The Goldpill , you wrote;

Greed is good and selfishness is a virtue.


I believe that you believe that, but as a Christian I cannot of course.


You say you're not a communist, while at the same time you use their flawed ideas.


I'm not a Communist, despite the fact that I do NOT see their ideas as ''flawed''. simply for the fact that no matter how true they are about Capitalism I do not believe that Communism/Socialism can survive the greed and selfishness of fallen human nature. I therefore examine people as they are.


You even linked to a Youtube channel that has a communist kiwi as its avatar.


That's right, and I'd link to anything that happens to be true no matter the actual source. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Yes. It says that because there is a higher aim than money. And that aim is Power. The highest power can come only through God. So in order to get there, you'll have to follow Jesus (as a Son of God) and one day, you might become God yourself. Or at least, become worthy of Heavenly Kingdom.


No, it isn't Power. It's an understanding that to God alone belongs all Power and Sovereignty over His Creation, and trust in His Goodness.



Maybe, but I don't think my projections are false. You said that what I stand for is the exact thing you fight against. But, I have an impression that you wouldn't fight against envy of poor with the same vigor.


Sure, theft or the desire to steal what is not earned by one's own labor is a sin all around, and such have no share in eternal life.

If you want to help the poor, get rich yourself and then spend that money building even more businesses and jobs.


Ah, the old ''trickle down'' theory, or rather con job, in which the Poor are to rely on the alleged good will of the Rich for scraps from the Rich man's table, which ''good will'' can be proven to be in reality non-existent.


What you need to understand is that capitalism is the only just and truly good economic system we currently have. Hyper-capitalism would be the next step.


I think our definitions of ''good'' and ''just'' differ somewhat. I do believe ''Hyper-Capitalism'' or ''Anarcho-Capitalism'' will be the next inevitable step though.

The apparent flaws in capitalism are not because of itself, but because of socialist measures implemented in capitalism. It's like a little poison drip.


Measures like looking after the working man and not screwing them over, got it.



Don't worry about over-production of anything. If the goods are overproduced their prices will fall and the owners of their production will soon stop producing those goods. This, of course, comes under an assumption that the (over)produced goods are not directly harmful for others, such as illegal weapons production.


:lol:

Prices fall too much and you still have goods on the shelf that people can't or won't buy at any price, your business is still shutting it's doors.


This whole thread is about explaining the flaws of communism.
First flaw is that it wants to abolish capitalism. This should be enough.


Remains to be proven. While not a Communist, the critique of Capitalism is still shown as valid.


Name one thing.


Books of Napoleon Hill, along with few others, are a rich man's Bible. It might even help you become more than a salesman. Dare I say, a capitalist.
Make sure to read "Outwitting the Devil".
His little book, single-handedly, brought more people out of poverty than all the so called economists in the world combined.


''What gains a man to win the whole world and lose his very soul?''

''Thou fool, tonight thy life is required of thee!''


There was talk about surplus value, but marxists corrupted it. The same way Nazis corrupted swastika.


Vague talk of ''corruption'' is not a rebuttal of the concept of Surplus Value.



I'm not confusing price with value. I made it very clear through my posts what price is and what value is.


I think you're incorrect about not being confused, but carry on.


It's amazing that you believe that to be true. I've made over 30 notes all with timestamps about his flaws. I'll post them if necessary. But, for now here's a puzzle for you:
What about deficit value? What happens when the employer goes to market and can only sell the produced chair for 100? That's the highest he can get. Now, he has to pay the equipment with 100, pay the workers 50, and retain no surplus value (profits). In fact, he's in deficit by 50. Even worse, the workers do not suffer. The workers got paid 50, while the employer lost 50? And if surplus value is theft by employers, then deficit value is theft by workers.


:lol:

The thief gets bested at the market by other thieves, and feels the answer is screwing over the workers who made the goods, that's rich. Or rather, that's the Rich...


Then you must be a very bad salesman.


No, I do alright for myself, I've familiarized myself with the Mammon of Unrighteousness, but that familiarity has bred contempt.


I'm not sure about that second part.
Nothing is stopping me from selling my car for 1$, and nothing is stopping me from buying some dumb painting for $ 40 millions.
There is absolutely nothing in this world that's going to convince me that the creator of this painting put an amount of tools and labor worth $ 40 millions. lol
Image


What value there is, is still stolen from the worker, the producer, regardless of the market price of a good, despite whatever efforts the Capitalists involved have made to sell a finished product. This speaks to the inefficiency and waste of Capitalism, by the way.


Because the workers do not have the means, nor the knowledge required to run the business.


Collectively speaking, and under management and administration of skilled, well, managers and administrators, I dare say that a business would be run much better by them than some guy flogging his staff to work harder this week because he wants to buy a 48,000 USD automobile, cash, next week.

If they could, or knew how to they wouldn't be working for someone else.


In Capitalism, everybody works for themselves and their loved ones, and so the ''know how'' for everybody is rather narrowly applied.



The owner's work is the only work that truly matters. They reap the profits, because they also suffer the risk of loosing money.


Money robbed from the Surplus is what is at risk. If you take money out of a person's wallet and gamble with it at the casino and lose, it's pretty much the same principle.

The worker gets paid regardless of how the market treats the owner. (not in every case, since workers can make deals where they paid based on market outcomes).


As the only producer of value, it's their just due.
#15012373
The Goldpill wrote:He didn't say why.

Obviously, it's because people are myopic and vindictive and emotional and dishonest and make mistakes.*

So much for "every organism ACTS perfectly rationally", then. That's eight billion organisms taking billions of irrational decisions and making mistakes.


:lol:


* Ariely, D. American Psychological Association, March 2016, Vol 47, No. 3
Last edited by ingliz on 16 Jun 2019 20:12, edited 1 time in total.
#15012385
annatar1914 wrote:I believe that you believe that, but as a Christian I cannot of course.

Weak people can not be Christians. One day, you might become a true Christian.


annatar1914 wrote:I'm not a Communist, despite the fact that I do NOT see their ideas as ''flawed''. simply for the fact that no matter how true they are about Capitalism I do not believe that Communism/Socialism can survive the greed and selfishness of fallen human nature. I therefore examine people as they are.

You don't see it, because you never used your eyes.
If you were examining people as they are, you and I wouldn't be having this discussion.

annatar1914 wrote:That's right, and I'd link to anything that happens to be true no matter the actual source. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

But, a broken clock is not a good clock.
The content of that video is not true.

annatar1914 wrote:No, it isn't Power. It's an understanding that to God alone belongs all Power and Sovereignty over His Creation, and trust in His Goodness.

God is all-powerful, is the creator of all things and is the source of good. God is power. Those who are closer to God are those who do like their Father does. Those who seek God's power, are the Children of God.

annatar1914 wrote:Sure, theft or the desire to steal what is not earned by one's own labor is a sin all around, and such have no share in eternal life.

Then you should attack the workers, since they steal as much as the owners do. You should attack both parties equally. But you don't. And you just confessed that here. And let's not fool ourselves here, you're the envious one. Maybe even the poor one.


annatar1914 wrote:Ah, the old ''trickle down'' theory, or rather con job, in which the Poor are to rely on the alleged good will of the Rich for scraps from the Rich man's table, which ''good will'' can be proven to be in reality non-existent.

Ah yes. The evil rich man. Watch out people, the evil rich man is gonna steal all your surplus labor. But we marxists wont. We love you.
The poor are poor because they rely on others to provide them with necessary things. The poor should rely only upon themselves.

annatar1914 wrote:I think our definitions of ''good'' and ''just'' differ somewhat. I do believe ''Hyper-Capitalism'' or ''Anarcho-Capitalism'' will be the next inevitable step though.

My definition is right, yours is not.
Hyper-capitalism will probably be the next great system, but it might take a very long time until that happens. There's going to be at least a few major commie "revolutions" until that happens. Until people realize the truth.
Anarcho-x is never going to happen, i.e. to sustain itself.

annatar1914 wrote:Measures like looking after the working man and not screwing them over, got it.

lmao, I approve workers standing up for themselves and making better deals in their favor.
I do not, however, approve sneaky marxists corrupting and taking over worker's unions. Oh, just how they love to claim that they are "the protectors of workers". HAH!
There is a video where constructions workers gathered to yell and chant against some marxists who's holding speech about how they protect workers. Irony at its finest.
Here's the video, I found it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWH-lIRSUPY

annatar1914 wrote:Prices fall too much and you still have goods on the shelf that people can't or won't buy at any price, your business is still shutting it's doors.

If people don't want to buy goods at any price, even at the lowest possible like for free or even with benefits, then there's no problem. That business will suffer the loses for their failed business actions.


annatar1914 wrote:Remains to be proven. While not a Communist, the critique of Capitalism is still shown as valid.

I already proved it.
Here's the major breaking points:
1) The market price of a good is determined by the contract between a buyer and a seller.
2) The value of that good is NEVER determined by the amount of work put into production of that good. The value is determined by the subjective calculations of the members of that deal (between the buyer and a seller). That calculation is based upon the survival power that item would bring.
3) The surplus value as defined by marxists is a myth. By their logic, there must exist the deficit value, which is the amount the worker steals from the employer.
4) The labor of an employer is the most important work done in any business. They are the one who produce most of final value, and thus reap the benefits of their work.
5) Just because worker is paid to work, does not mean they produce value. If the final product is useless and if no one wants to buy it, then all the work (including the employer's work) and all the materials used are just lost.
6) The idea that the market is somehow flawed.
7) Calling capitalists thieves, while at the same time calling for theft and mass murders of (dozens of) millions of people.
8) And so on, and so on...

annatar1914 wrote:''What gains a man to win the whole world and lose his very soul?''

''Thou fool, tonight thy life is required of thee!''

“Jesus replied, “Your mistake is that you don’t know the Scriptures, and you don’t know the power of God.”

annatar1914 wrote:The thief gets bested at the market by other thieves, and feels the answer is screwing over the workers who made the goods, that's rich. Or rather, that's the Rich...

No, the employer gets punished by the market for producing something which people do not want to buy, for the amount he planned that they would.
The reason why workers still get paid is because it's not their fault. They did their job as agreed, and got payed as agreed. The market results of their work lay upon the shoulders of the employer. He will either get rewarded with more profits, or will get punished.
This is beyond obvious to anyone who has every run, or tried to run a business.
But, of course, Marx was not a businessman, nor are any of the marxists.

annatar1914 wrote:What value there is, is still stolen from the worker, the producer, regardless of the market price of a good, despite whatever efforts the Capitalists involved have made to sell a finished product. This speaks to the inefficiency and waste of Capitalism, by the way.

What are you talking about?
The guy painted a fucking painting with materials worth of few bucks and managed to sold that shit for $ 40 millions. How many hours does a coal miner has to work until they earn $ 40 million? Around 3650 years, if my calculations are correct.

annatar1914 wrote:Collectively speaking, and under management and administration of skilled, well, managers and administrators, I dare say that a business would be run much better by them than some guy flogging his staff to work harder this week because he wants to buy a 48,000 USD automobile, cash, next week.

I can assure you that this does not work. I live in a post-communist country and know for a fact that those business sucked major balls. In fact, in any free market those businesses would fail. They can only barely work if everyone else is screwed up. It's like retards sprint running. You as a retard have a greater chance of winning if you're competing with other retards.

annatar1914 wrote:Money robbed from the Surplus is what is at risk. If you take money out of a person's wallet and gamble with it at the casino and lose, it's pretty much the same principle.

If you take money from someone's pocket without them allowing you to do it, that's theft.
If you and that person agree that you can do it, then it's not a theft but an agreement.
The worker and an employer in a capitalist system create a contract. Both of those parties are allowed to reject the terms of the contract if they don't like it.
This is not the case with communists, where everyone is designed to work certain amounts of time. Our brotherly labor.

annatar1914 wrote:As the only producer of value, it's their just due.

As the partial producers of surplus value, as much as deficit value, their due is justly paid by the agreement they made with an employer.
#15012387
ingliz wrote:Obviously, it's because people are myopic and vindictive and emotional and dishonest and make mistakes.*

So much for "every organism ACTS perfectly rationally", then. That's eight billion organisms taking billions of irrational decisions and making mistakes.


:lol:


* Ariely, D. American Psychological Association, March 2016, Vol 47, No. 3


//still refuses to answer my questions. I'm starting to suspect that we have another coincidence member right here.

Why would you think that any of these things "people are myopic and vindictive and emotional and dishonest and make mistakes." are irrational? There are plenty of reasons to be like that in certain situations, at least for some people who don't know any other better way to act.
#15012400
The Goldpill wrote:You didn't answer the question

Emotions are irrational.

In The Republic, Plato expels poets from the hypothetical ideal state because they 'incite the passions instead of the faculties of reason'.

Poets... corrupt youth and incite the passions instead of the faculties of reason. Poetry feeds and waters the passions instead of drying them up; she lets them rule, although they ought to be controlled, if mankind are ever to increase in happiness and virtue.


:)
#15012404
ingliz wrote:Emotions are irrational.

In The Republic, Plato expels poets from the hypothetical ideal state because they 'incite the passions instead of the faculties of reason'.

Poets... corrupt youth and incite the passions instead of the faculties of reason. Poetry feeds and waters the passions instead of drying them up; she lets them rule, although they ought to be controlled, if mankind are ever to increase in happiness and virtue.


:)


Answer my question first and I'll address your points.
#15012462
The Goldpill wrote:The laws of economics most definitely order every aspect of human's life

With statements like that, one could almost believe you are the vulgar Marxist* in this conversation.

Not everything is a reduction to or a simple reflection of economics. Confusing the intellectual reproduction of reality with the actual structure of reality itself is an idealist delusion.

Marx was not a businessman, nor are any of the marxists.

Wrong!

Engels was a businessman by day and a radical at night.


:)


* Lenin, An Infantile Disorder.
#15012469
ingliz wrote:With statements like that, one could almost believe you are the vulgar Marxist* in this conversation.

Not everything is a reduction to or a simple reflection of economics. Confusing the intellectual reproduction of reality with the actual structure of reality itself is an idealist delusion.


Wrong!

Engels was a businessman by day and a radical at night.


:)


* Lenin, An Infantile Disorder.


Why do you keep refusing to answer my questions?
#15012473
The Goldpill wrote:Why do you keep refusing to answer my questions?

As far as I am aware, you have only asked one question - "Who made you?" - and I didn't think it required an answer.

Silly me assumed you had some passing knowledge of penises and vaginas, mummies and daddies, the ins and outs of sexual reproduction.

It seems I was mistaken.
#15012474
ingliz wrote:As far as I am aware, you have only asked one question - "Who made you?" - and I didn't think it required an answer.

Silly me assumed you had some passing knowledge of penises and vaginas, mummies and daddies, the ins and outs of sexual reproduction.

It seems I was mistaken.


That was not the only question.
And who made your parents?

The other questions were:
- Did man create laws of math and physics?
- Are you one of them?

I don't think you're even "reading" what I wrote, or maybe you're just pretending that you don't see it.

P.S. Where's the smiley face? :|
#15012477
The Goldpill wrote:Did man create laws of math and physics?

Nobody created them.

Reality is simply a distribution of "stuff", endowed with certain properties, through time and through space. What we call the laws of nature are just patterns within this Humean (experiential) mosaic.

Are you one of them?

One of whom?


:)
#15012483
ingliz wrote:Nobody created them.

Reality is simply a distribution of "stuff", endowed with certain properties, through time and through space. What we call the laws of nature are just patterns within this Humean (experiential) mosaic.


One of whom?


:)


ingliz wrote:Nobody created them.

I thought you understand how biology and reproduction works. Your parents were made by their parents. And who made them?
If you say "nobody", you're breaking the "something out of nothing" principle.

ingliz wrote:Reality is simply a distribution of "stuff", endowed with certain properties, through time and through space. What we call the laws of nature are just patterns within this Humean (experiential) mosaic.

We observe, or try to observe, those laws. But, did we create them? Did humans make it so that 2 + 2 = 4 ?

ingliz wrote:One of whom?

Of the coincidences?
#15012490
The Goldpill wrote:I thought you understand how biology and reproduction works.

This 'God the Creator' obsession of yours cannot be healthy.

Life is just a series of chemical reactions. Everything happening in your body at this moment can be reduced to one molecule attaching to, breaking from, or donating/accepting electrons from another, nothing more.

And who made them?

The origins of life...

Chemicals -> Chemical evolution -> Abiogenesis (3.5 billion years ago) -> Evolution -> My parents

Note: No God required.

But, did we create them?

No.

It's just pattern recognition. The 'laws' don't actively govern natural processes, they merely describe them.

Did humans make it so that 2 + 2 = 4 ?

Yes.

Using binary numbers 1 + 1 = 10 because "2" does not exist in this system and "4" (10 + 10) would be 100.

Mathematics is a human construct.

The only reason mathematics is admirably suited to describing the physical world is that we invented it to do just that.

Of the coincidences?

A question in English would help.

coincidences

What coincidences?


:)
Last edited by ingliz on 17 Jun 2019 16:22, edited 1 time in total.
  • 1
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
The Irishman...

As far as Harvey Weinstein comment your post to @[…]

He definitely wouldn't be looming behind her as he[…]

Unfortunately, Time has a record of picking PotYs[…]

The one that erased the 1910-1940 warming and the[…]