[litwin]

Karl Marx about Moscow empire: " The origin of Moscovy lies in the bloody degradation of Mongolian slavery" Do you agree with K. Marx ?


The origin of Moscovy lies in the bloody degradation of Mongolian slavery...
"semi-Asiatic" menace to "Europe" and "civilization ...
the Moscovites. They are not Slavs; they do not belong to the Indo-Germanic race at all, they are des intrus [intruders], who must be chased back across the Dnieper,...

Karl Marx (1856–57/1873)​

[annatar1914]

Good thing we can appreciate even an enemy for his science, and not for his scummy beliefs, and modify them for changed times by the very principles he and others laid down.

[Yaqum]

"A slave who not only eschews a striving for freedom but justifies and eulogises his slavery by calling for the throttling of the Ukraine as a defense of Russia is a lickspittle and a boor, who arouses a legitimate feeling of indignation, contempt, and loathing." -- Lenin

[annatar1914]

"A slave who not only eschews a striving for freedom but justifies and eulogises his slavery by calling for the throttling of the Ukraine as a defense of Russia is a lickspittle and a boor, who arouses a legitimate feeling of indignation, contempt, and loathing." -- Lenin

That's what he said, then. The historical circumstances change and I'm certain that based on his scientific analysis Lenin would be the first to burn the fascist devils in the Ukraine and elsewhere.... Because Russia is still fighting for Communism, at it's heart:

[Yaqum]

That's what he said, then. The historical circumstances change and I'm certain that based on his scientific analysis Lenin would be the first to burn the fascist devils in the Ukraine and elsewhere.... Because Russia is still fighting for Communism, at it's heart.

Ukraine is a liberal country, not fascist. The primary focus of Lenin’s work was centered against imperialist tsarist Russia, which was an empire that modern Russia tries to emulate, albeit horrendously ineptly.

It's also far-fetched to assume that Lenin would take the side of a country that canonized Nicholas II, the very same tsar who had Lenin's brother killed, a defining moment in forming Lenin's revolutionary ideals.

If you're looking for fascism, then go no further than modern Russia. Putin's official ideologue is Ilyin, a Mussolini sympathiser. Ilyin's works are required reading for all the members of Russia's parliament.

It was obvious that you are part of the alt-left even before you posted the video by Haz, a man who said women pee out of their vaginas and a Dugin sympathizer; Dugin being another fascist.

Needless to say I won't embarrass myself by clicking on that video.

Here's more Lenin for you instead.

No democrat, let alone a socialist, will venture to deny the complete legitimacy of the Ukraine’s demands. And no democrat can deny the Ukraine’s right to freely secede from Russia. Only unqualified recognition of this right can actually break completely and irrevocably with the accursed tsarist past, when everything was done to bring about a mutual estrangement of the two peoples so close to each other in language, territory, character and history. Accursed tsarism made the Great Russians executioners of the Ukrainian people, and fomented in them a hatred for those who even forbade Ukrainian children to speak and study in their native tongue.

And for entertainment's sake, here's another video of Haz:

[ThirdTerm]

Ukraine has a parallel history with Russia after the Mongol conquest of Kiev. Eastern Ukraine was what was known as the Crimean Khanate until the 18th century (Tartaria on the map), which influenced the formation of Ukrainian culture and language. The Cossack people had mixed ethnic origins, descending from Ukrainians and Tatars, who settled or passed through the boundless Pontic–Caspian steppe that stretches from central Asia to southeastern Europe.



When Ukrainian culture and language flourished in the sixteenth and first half of the seventeenth century, western Ukraine was part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The Crimean Khanate, the longest-lived of the Tatar khanates of the Golden Horde, occupied much of today's Ukraine until the eighteenth century. As the Ukrainian language developed further, some borrowings from Tatar or Turkish languages occurred.



D.G. Grinchyshyn identifies three (“traditional”) periods of influence of Turkic languages on the Ukrainian language, stating that by the 15th century they were similar to influences on the Russian language (the first period – 1st century AD before the formation of Kyiv Rus; the second period – time before the Mongol-Tatar invasion (10th-12th c.); the third period of the Mongol-Tatar invasion (12th-15th c.)). But from the 16th century Turkic influences on the Ukrainian language increased, they were conditioned by the current political situation, which gives grounds to outline another period in the history of Turkic-Ukrainian relations – the 16th-18th centuries as a period of close contact between the Ukrainian population and the population of the Crimean Khanate and Ottoman Turkey (Grinchishin, 1995: 90; Baskakov, 1986: 5–6).

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _Centuries

[annatar1914]

Ukraine is a liberal country, not fascist. The primary focus of Lenin’s work was centered against imperialist tsarist Russia, which was an empire that modern Russia tries to emulate, albeit horrendously ineptly.

It's also far-fetched to assume that Lenin would take the side of a country that canonized Nicholas II, the very same tsar who had Lenin's brother killed, a defining moment in forming Lenin's revolutionary ideals.

If you're looking for fascism, then go no further than modern Russia. Putin's official ideologue is Ilyin, a Mussolini sympathiser. Ilyin's works are required reading for all the members of Russia's parliament.

It was obvious that you are part of the alt-left even before you posted the video by Haz, a man who said women pee out of their vaginas and a Dugin sympathizer; Dugin being another fascist.

Needless to say I won't embarrass myself by clicking on that video.

Here's more Lenin for you instead.



And for entertainment's sake, here's another video of Haz:

Think Dialectically. Lenin is talking about Romanov Tsarist Russia and the Ukraine. Today he'd be fighting the Ukraine. Communists are fighting the Ukrainian military, fighting the Banderites.

[Yaqum]

Think Dialectically. Lenin is talking about Romanov Tsarist Russia and the Ukraine. Today he'd be fighting the Ukraine. Communists are fighting the Ukrainian military, fighting the Banderites.

Dialectically speaking, I think Lenin would’ve done what he did in the past when he was in a similar situation, which was to take money from western powers who were battling Russia during World War I in order to finance his revolution, and only after that proceed to reconquer Ukraine by driving out nationalist elements.

In conclusion, I think you’re half right.

[annatar1914]

Dialectically speaking, I think Lenin would’ve done what he did in the past when he was in a similar situation, which was to take money from western powers who were battling Russia during World War I in order to finance his revolution, and only after that proceed to reconquer Ukraine by driving out nationalist elements.

In conclusion, I think you’re half right.

@Yaqum :

Why not entirely? Isn't that in fact what all is happening, over a period of time since 1999?

[litwin]

Think Dialectically. Lenin is talking about Romanov Tsarist Russia and the Ukraine. Today he'd be fighting the Ukraine. Communists are fighting the Ukrainian military, fighting the Banderites.

in your RT world only . but its ok, you guys are always lying , we just dont read - listen your RT crap



back to reality :
UN: United Nations General Assembly Resolution 68/262
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Na ... ion_68/262


Chinese academic Deng Xize : "No more Mongol-Muscovy style empire: Thoughts on the war in Ukraine, The global reaction to the war in Ukraine in fact shows that such empires will no longer be tolerated."​
The Mongol-Muscovy style empire could be defined as a dominating, rapacious empire upheld by violence, especially unruly violence, and exhibiting three prominent characteristics.


First, it uses unruly violence as a regular means of resolving international disputes. While violence is common and sometimes necessary in political or social governance, rules have been set for its use under a modern lawful democratic system. Unlike in ancient times, the use of violence now comes under heavy restrictions and is “predictable”. Such an evolution also applies to international relations.


" modern technology and the international ethical environment led to the inevitable death of the Mongol-Muscovy empire, while similar empires will no longer come back.
https://www.thinkchina.sg/politics/no-m ... ar-ukraine

any comment on this ?

[litwin]

Dialectically speaking, I think Lenin would’ve done what he did in the past when he was in a similar situation, which was to take money from western powers who were battling Russia during World War I in order to finance his revolution, and only after that proceed to reconquer Ukraine by driving out nationalist elements.

In conclusion, I think you’re half right.

you mean conquer ? Lenin´s criminal gang has never had Ukraine, Poland or Belarus in the first place .

ps

. And then, the pious prince [Dmitry Donskoy] came to an understanding and enlightenment, and after consideration, became perplexed and lost in thought, thereafter he became afraid to take a stand against the tsar [Tokhtamysh] himself . And he did not go to battle against him, and did not raise his hands against the tsar, but went to his city Pereyaslavl, and from there—past Rostov, and then, I will say, hastily to Kostroma. (...) The townspeople [of Moscow] were agitated and raged like drunkards. Some wanted to stay, shutting themselves up in the city, while others thought to flee. And a great strife broke out between those and others: some with belongings rushed to the city, while others fled from the city, robbed.[8]

Tokhtamysh´s coins :

[litwin]

Ukraine has a parallel history with Russia after the Mongol conquest of Kiev. Eastern Ukraine was what was known as the Crimean Khanate until the 18th century (Tartaria on the map), which influenced the formation of Ukrainian culture and language. The Cossack people had mixed ethnic origins, descending from Ukrainians and Tatars, who settled or passed through the boundless Pontic–Caspian steppe that stretches from central Asia to southeastern Europe.



When Ukrainian culture and language flourished in the sixteenth and first half of the seventeenth century, western Ukraine was part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The Crimean Khanate, the longest-lived of the Tatar khanates of the Golden Horde, occupied much of today's Ukraine until the eighteenth century. As the Ukrainian language developed further, some borrowings from Tatar or Turkish languages occurred.



D.G. Grinchyshyn identifies three (“traditional”) periods of influence of Turkic languages on the Ukrainian language, stating that by the 15th century they were similar to influences on the Russian language (the first period – 1st century AD before the formation of Kyiv Rus; the second period – time before the Mongol-Tatar invasion (10th-12th c.); the third period of the Mongol-Tatar invasion (12th-15th c.)). But from the 16th century Turkic influences on the Ukrainian language increased, they were conditioned by the current political situation, which gives grounds to outline another period in the history of Turkic-Ukrainian relations – the 16th-18th centuries as a period of close contact between the Ukrainian population and the population of the Crimean Khanate and Ottoman Turkey (Grinchishin, 1995: 90; Baskakov, 1986: 5–6).

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _Centuries

RT.ru crap

back to reality :
https://www.thinkchina.sg/politics/no-m ... ar-ukraine


https://krutyvuss.livejournal.com/136610.html

[litwin]

That's what he said, then. The historical circumstances change and I'm certain that based on his scientific analysis Lenin would be the first to burn the fascist devils in the Ukraine and elsewhere.... BecauseRussia is still fighting for Communism, at it's heart:

you made my day, great joke , ivan

google : Ivan Ilyin+putin

[Verv]

Karl Marx about Moscow empire: " The origin of Moscovy lies in the bloody degradation of Mongolian slavery" Do you agree with K. Marx ?


The origin of Moscovy lies in the bloody degradation of Mongolian slavery...
"semi-Asiatic" menace to "Europe" and "civilization ...
the Moscovites. They are not Slavs; they do not belong to the Indo-Germanic race at all, they are des intrus [intruders], who must be chased back across the Dnieper,...

Karl Marx (1856–57/1873)​

This is absolutely amazing...

Tucked away in the works of the political philosopher, historian & economist Karl Marx are slivers of 19th century racism that his own followers abhor.... Whenever these are dragged out they are rightfully considered embarrassing and incongruent with the ideals that he proposed by his followers and brushed aside.

Litwin here drudges up the ugliest part of the writings from a man whose work is already considered dubious by many to advance a racialist perspective on who the Russians are as a people - slaves of the Mongols..!

Statements that are arguably equally applicable to any number of Slav groups, and who we have every reason to believe Karl Marx would have liberally painted the Ukrainians with, save maybe the observation that some of them aren't even proper Russians to begin with but Mongolites..!

And this is the thrust of a whole new thread for the guy.

Just wild, lol.

[litwin]

This is absolutely amazing...

Tucked away in the works of the political philosopher, historian & economist Karl Marx are slivers of 19th century racism that his own followers abhor.... Whenever these are dragged out they are rightfully considered embarrassing and incongruent with the ideals that he proposed by his followers and brushed aside.

Litwin here drudges up the ugliest part of the writings from a man whose work is already considered dubious by many to advance a racialist perspective on who the Russians are as a people - slaves of the Mongols..!

Statements that are arguably equally applicable to any number of Slav groups, and who we have every reason to believe Karl Marx would have liberally painted the Ukrainians with, save maybe the observation that some of them aren't even proper Russians to begin with but Mongolites..!

And this is the thrust of a whole new thread for the guy.

Just wild, lol.

Do you agree with K. Marx ? just yes or no?


"Let us begin with this evident fact: Muscovy does not belong at all to Europe, but to Asia. It follows that judging Muscovy and the Muscovites by our European standards is a mistake to be avoided."—gonzague de reynold, 19501 In methodological terms, one should de-Europeanise any analysis of Muscovy policy.— thomas gomart, 20062 "

[Verv]

Do you agree with K. Marx ? just yes or no?


"Let us begin with this evident fact: Muscovy does not belong at all to Europe, but to Asia. It follows that judging Muscovy and the Muscovites by our European standards is a mistake to be avoided."—gonzague de reynold, 19501 In methodological terms, one should de-Europeanise any analysis of Muscovy policy.— thomas gomart, 20062 "

This is a unique opportunity to have some insightful discussion on the nature of Russia, I suppose.

Marx is not without reason in suggesing that Russian society is historically and culturally distinct from Europe in many ways, and that its political order also tends to follow different patterns and face challenges that can be atypical for Western Europe.

Geopolitically, Russia is quite distinct from the rest of Europe.

However, as a culturally & civilizationally Christian nation with a white majority, it is still European from this perspective. However, it can be further broken down.

I would also say that if we were to reject Russians as white, Christian Europeans, we could easily begin doing the same with the Poles...

After all, who are the Poles?

They are Western Slavs that lived under the boot of autocrats that followed a pattern of governance similar to that of Russia. Indeed, sometimes you lived under a Russian boot.

Whatever argument you make that the Russians are not Europeans can be equally applicable to you, Litwin. What motive does a Western European descent person like myself have to carefully maintain the Europeanness of a Polock but deny that of a Russian..? Anybody who would do that is doing so without any genuine motive, just being blinded by the current Russia/Ukraine conflict.

[Yaqum]

you mean conquer? Lenin´s criminal gang has never had Ukraine, Poland or Belarus in the first place.

I was talking about Russia in general reconquering Ukraine, not Lenin specifically, but not to waste time on silly semantics I’ll just say yes, you’re right; Soviet Russia conquered Ukraine.

[litwin]

This is a unique opportunity to have some insightful discussion on the nature of Russia, I suppose.

Marx is not without reason in suggesing that Russian society is historically and culturally distinct from Europe in many ways, and that its political order also tends to follow different patterns and face challenges that can be atypical for Western Europe.

Geopolitically, Russia is quite distinct from the rest of Europe.

However, as a culturally & civilizationally Christian nation with a white majority, it is still European from this perspective. However, it can be further broken down.

I would also say that if we were to reject Russians as white, Christian Europeans, we could easily begin doing the same with the Poles...

After all, who are the Poles?

They are Western Slavs that lived under the boot of autocrats that followed a pattern of governance similar to that of Russia. Indeed, sometimes you lived under a Russian boot.

Whatever argument you make that the Russians are not Europeans can be equally applicable to you, Litwin. What motive does a Western European descent person like myself have to carefully maintain the Europeanness of a Polock but deny that of a Russian..? Anybody who would do that is doing so without any genuine motive, just being blinded by the current Russia/Ukraine conflict.

2 questions
1. are you Ivan ? dont lie this time ...

2. can you read it for me ?
Mongol Foundations of the Moscow State:
https://jsis.washington.edu/ellisoncent ... tate-1.pdf

your posts are full of RT crap as usual . Renaissance borders = European borders . and we both know your Muscovy has always been outside Renaissance borders. try to read Historians like Fernand Braudel, if you can of cos. Fernand Braudel wrote that the eastern border of the GDL has always been European eastern border

[Verv]

2 questions
1. are you Ivan ? dont lie this time ...

2. can you read it for me ?
Mongol Foundations of the Moscow State:
https://jsis.washington.edu/ellisoncent ... tate-1.pdf

your posts are full of RT crap as usual . Renaissance borders = European borders . and we both know your Muscovy has always been outside Renaissance borders. try to read Historians like Fernand Braudel, if you can of cos. Fernand Braudel wrote that the eastern border of the GDL has always been European eastern border

(1) No, I am not Ivan. You can actually see that my account is very old. I have long periods without much activity, and for much of my time on this website, I was here with Ivan and there was no Ukraine issue or anything even happening. We disagreed on a number of things.

You'll also see my views evolve over the years.

(2a) I consider Russia a historically European and Christian state. They intermarried with Europeans, practiced the religion of Europe, were seen as Europeans by others... Just like the Poles.

Slavic people are white Christians.

In the Ukraine and Russia both, there are non-white, non-Christian historic populations, but that does not change that the actual Ukrainians (who were identifying as a type of Russian for a very, very long time) and the actual Russians are Christians.

(2b) There's people who emphasize how different Russia & Eastern Europe can be from Western Europe, but these speeches are just like how when people emphasize the difference between Northern & Southern Europe.

the only people who try to tell us that the Russians or the Slavs are not white Europeans are either

- Nazi white supremacists
- Extreme Russophobes with a specifically anti-Russian agenda

Of these two, at least the Nazis have a comprehensive and holistic understanding of the problem, treating the entire Slavic group as Mongol adjacent non-whites, and treating Mediterranean Europeans as generally Arabized non-whites. It's completely incorrect and even stupid to play with race in this kind of way, but at least there's consistency in their extremism.

What you are doing I think is pretty remarkable.

[Yaqum]

Russians do not want to be seen as Europeans anymore.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/MlsnVUUEoc8

De-Europeanisation is in full swing.