[Suska]

how about if I try to address something you said which sounds almost half as insane as that.

Capitalism was never imagined to work in such an environment and it never will.

I honestly have never considered the dangers of high speed communication to the economy. Please explain this to me.

[Xenonx]

There are several books on the subject, I suggest using google.

[Suska]

what subject?

[RonPaulalways]

If you don't think that economics is the act of calculating how to best meet our demands given our resources I'm not quite sure you know what economics is.

A computer will never be powerful enough to centrally plan a communist economy effectively, because the more powerful computers are, the more complex the economy is, and the greater processing power it would take to model/plan it.

When will communists give up their arrogant dream to plan society?

If you think it's so easy to plan the economy with modern computers, how bout you take your computer wizardry to the stock market and use it to predict market changes and make huge profits.

[Xenonx]

A computer will never be powerful enough to centrally plan a communist economy effectively

I just showed that there are some 5 orders of magnitude overhead to what it would take to plan the American economy given the best single super computer available today.

how bout you take your computer wizardry to the stock market and use it to predict market changes and make huge profits.

Information asymmetry prevents that, at any rate I would only need to beat the computers of the trading houses but installing one of those would cost some millions of dollars I do not have and will be obsolete within 6 months.

what subject?

Computational economics, durr.

[RonPaulalways]

Quote:
A computer will never be powerful enough to centrally plan a communist economy effectively


I just showed that there are some 5 orders of magnitude overhead to what it would take to plan the American economy given the best single super computer available today.

You neglect the fact that there are super computers operating in the economy that would themselves have to be modeled and planned for by this central planning super computer in order to plan the economy. As computing power in the economy increases, the supercomputer needed to plan the economy becomes increasingly powerful, and always remains out of reach.

Quote:
how bout you take your computer wizardry to the stock market and use it to predict market changes and make huge profits.


Information asymmetry prevents that, at any rate I would only need to beat the computers of the trading houses but installing one of those would cost some millions of dollars I do not have and will be obsolete within 6 months.

Information asymmetry will always exist, whether in a free market, or a communist one. The fact that there are trading houses that would constantly be competing against your computers is a perfect example of why there's no way to effectively plan the economy. The economy is dynamic and reactive to the actions of all of its players, including the government, so you can't manage it according to a plan.

[Xenonx]

You neglect the fact that there are super computers operating in the economy that would themselves have to be modeled and planned for by this central planning super computer in order to plan the economy.

Just as asbestos was removed from our environment so will these at any rate I did not wish for computers to simulate the current economy but to replace it.

The fact that there are trading houses that would constantly be competing against your computers is a perfect example of why there's no way to effectively plan the economy.

Who said that there is any reason for them to exist any more?

[RonPaulalways]

Quote:
You neglect the fact that there are super computers operating in the economy that would themselves have to be modeled and planned for by this central planning super computer in order to plan the economy.


Just as asbestos was removed from our environment so will these at any rate I did not wish for computers to simulate the current economy but to replace it.

That will significantly reduce productivity. It's an unbelievably stupid idea.

Quote:
The fact that there are trading houses that would constantly be competing against your computers is a perfect example of why there's no way to effectively plan the economy.


Who said that there is any reason for them to exist any more?

That exact example won't exist in a communist society, but self-interested agents with a desire to anticipate the future by modeling the environment and keeping their movements secret, will still exist. The economy is reactive, so can't be planned.

[Xenonx]

That will significantly reduce productivity. It's an unbelievably stupid idea.

You seem to be under the delusion that every computer in the world contributes information to the economy, this is flat out wrong. Further I'd only be interested in those that contribute to the information that determines the price of goods not those involved in production. Or are you under the impression that we can't predict the motion of the planets in the solar system to infinite accuracy for our practical purposes because we can't model every atom within them?

but self-interested agents with a desire to anticipate the future by modeling the environment and keeping their movements secret, will still exist.

There are also interests who would try to cheat at environmental standards, counterfeit money, etc etc. Just because they try to do it in secret doesn't mean that it isn't detected in today's economy, in one that is entirely digital with records it will be far easier to do that.

[RonPaulalways]

Quote:
That will significantly reduce productivity. It's an unbelievably stupid idea.


You seem to be under the delusion that every computer in the world contributes information to the economy, this is flat out wrong.

You seem to not have considered the implications of destroying a significant amount of an economy's computing power. Google for example has the largest supercomputer in the world, in the way of a network of massive data centers. By eliminating Google, you eliminate an enabler of information discovery and a huge source of economic progress/innovation.

Further I'd only be interested in those that contribute to the information that determines the price of goods not those involved in production. Or are you under the impression that we can't predict the motion of the planets in the solar system to infinite accuracy for our practical purposes because we can't model every atom within them?

Production and price are intimately linked. You seem to have a totally unrealistic picture of what it would take to model an economy to the degree needed to manage it.

Quote:
but self-interested agents with a desire to anticipate the future by modeling the environment and keeping their movements secret, will still exist.


There are also interests who would try to cheat at environmental standards, counterfeit money, etc etc. Just because they try to do it in secret doesn't mean that it isn't detected in today's economy, in one that is entirely digital with records it will be far easier to do that.

It *isn't* detected in today's economy. Crime/illegal-activities are rampant, and would be even moreso when more laws are instated that prohibit mutually voluntary actions, i.e. victimless crimes, where there is no party to the activity with an incentive to report the crime to authorities (as is the case with crimes like burglary which are not victimless).

[Xenonx]

By eliminating Google, you eliminate an enabler of information discovery and a huge source of economic progress/innovation.

Again you are delusion, how does google computers manipulate the market price of anything? They are huge data centres essentially that store personal information on most of the world.

You seem to have a totally unrealistic picture of what it would take to model an economy to the degree needed to manage it.

Indeed, that's why I would not model the economy but remove the physical currency stopping just about every problem we have today with the way the economy and the money supply fuck up.

It *isn't* detected in today's economy.

Enjoying your asbestos sandwich? I know I sure aren't, maybe you need a more effective government than the third world cleptocracy you have in the states? Or do you enjoy lead being one of the major food groups?

[RonPaulalways]

Quote:
By eliminating Google, you eliminate an enabler of information discovery and a huge source of economic progress/innovation.


Again you are delusion, how does google computers manipulate the market price of anything? They are huge data centres essentially that store personal information on most of the world.

Activities facilitated by Google affect the market price of nearly every thing. Google's ad market, adwords, allows people to buy and sell ad space, which in turn affects the supply/demand of countless products/services.

Google's own expenditures also have a significant effect on the economy in the way of billions of $ in hardware purchases, electricity bills, and salaries, and you cannot anticipate Google's business activities unless you can anticipate the evolution of the search engine market, which requires modeling not only the consumers but Google's massive data centers.

Indeed, that's why I would not model the economy but remove the physical currency stopping just about every problem we have today with the way the economy and the money supply fuck up.

I think you have an extremely unrealistic/simplistic view of what is required for an economy to provide people with their needs.

Quote:
It *isn't* detected in today's economy.


Enjoying your asbestos sandwich? I know I sure aren't, maybe you need a more effective government than the third world cleptocracy you have in the states? Or do you enjoy lead being one of the major food groups?

Banning asbestos is relatively trivial compared to stamping out black market activity, collusion, cronyism, corruption, etc.

Childish name-calling won't change the reality of that.

[Xenonx]

Activities facilitated by Google affect the market price of nearly every thing.

Terribly sorry, I only now read your name sorry to have wasted two peoples time in trying to explain how computational mathematics works and how this impacts the discipline of economics. You can now return to your chanting.

*walks away to echoes of "Ron Paul Forever" fading into the background*

[RonPaulalways]

Very mature response! Good luck in your promotion of your tyrannical centrally controlled society.

[Xenonx]

Very mature response! Good luck in your promotion of your tyrannical centrally controlled society.

The irony there is that you didn't see any

[Suska]

The irony here is that your "trying to explain how computational mathematics works" consisted of babbling briefly and then resorting to Ad-Hominem and you still think we ought to have jumped on board. Try harder. I still have very little clue what your on about.

[Gork]

There are so many sides to this debate, I'll just assume I disagree with everyone. You're all either Marxists or Fascists or Capitalists, I forgot who was who. I need a flow chart to follow this argument.