Soul Destroying Egalitarianism - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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As either the transitional stage to communism or legitimate socio-economic ends in its own right.
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By Suska
#13153465
I do agree with the article about the leftist delusions about race/class and the causes of inequality.
was that in there somewhere...?

I dunno why my using the example of The Wire gave you a springboard into.... that. Some sort of opinion piece about a tv show is not a real direct response to the idea that people have their loyalties and are competitive. I wouldn't have even thought to call that depiction liberal, I'd have called it "realism". Its not as thought the show really proscribes some treatment, if anything it celebrates the good and mourns the bad in several walks of life. I would dislike it I felt it was ingenuine, but I don't really care if its accurate Baltimore, is it accurate life? IMO its based on insights and veteran film-making, and coulda been about anything and it would have been worth watching.
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By RonPaulalways
#13153508
MB wrote:Mr. RPA, what causes inequality?


The cause of inequality is in inequality in intelligence, discipline, responsibility and respect for one's self/society.

Why is liberalism so flawed when it comes to 'social dynamics' and 'race/class' conflicts?


Because it dogmatically holds on to the fiction that the races and genders are identical, and promotes self-loathing rather than rational pursuit of improving society.

It considers it honorable to blame the majority white culture for problems and make excuses for the ineptness of the worse performing demographics (whether it's blacks and their much higher than average crime rates, homosexuals and their much higher than average promiscuity/STD infection rates/much lower life expectancy, etc).

Suska wrote:I dunno why my using the example of The Wire gave you a springboard into.... that.


I know it was off-tangent, but I wanted to take a swipe at the The Wire.

Some sort of opinion piece about a tv show is not a real direct response to the idea that people have their loyalties and are competitive.


I agree for the most part, but those segments still had that ghetto romanticism that's so common in popular culture.
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By MB.
#13153511
the ineptness of the worse performing demographics (


And what in your opinion causes the ineptness of the worse performing demographics?

The cause of inequality is in inequality in intelligence, discipline, responsibility and respect for one's self/society.


In a meritocratic social-liberal democratic capitalist society the cause of inequality can be argued to be derived from the variety of wants and capabilities of the individuals in that society.

But this is a tautological self-fulfilling argument.

What really causes the inequality is the structure of the society itself, which fosters and nurtures inequality as part of its system of economics. Obviously meritocratic capitalism couldn't function if everyone treated everyone else as economic equals.
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By SpecialOlympian
#13153617
The article's point, as I understand it, is that liberalism has a flawed understanding of social dynamics and offers the wrong societal prescriptions as a result.


Wow I wish I could learn so much by watching TV. I can't even remember the daily forecasts from the Weather Channel.

I guess it's sort of like how Socrates railed against the poet and the painter, and how they represent a truth twice removed from the original source since it has been filtered through their perception of it and then transplanted onto a canvas or transcribed to a piece of paper. These horrible liberal writers and producers are producing a product that conveys a false worldview that will lead unthinking simpletons to their doom, should The Wire influence them at the ballot box. Thank God we have people who criticize serial dramas to show us the true way. And thank God there are market incentives for them to show us the truth. I used to dream of being a doctor. But after reading this I think I could help more people if I criticized television.

How dare our overbearing government grant propagandistic liberal media moguls the right to broadcast this filth into our homes. Those frequency spectrums belong to all of us.

Oh wait, The Wire is an HBO original meaning it's not broadcasted on public airwaves. The Wire is another example of the failure of capitalism.

Maybe I don't understand the article, but capitalism can't work if The Wire is still on the air. It's a financial and ideological failure but it won't die. Does this mean that capitalism is flawed by its ability to promote views and products that are antithetical to itself? Is this an example of freedom or does this mean that extreme left and socialistic views have market value (thus granting them legitimacy)? I don't know. I'm not a television critic so I'm not qualified to comment.
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By Socrates Johnson
#13153717
The cause of inequality is in inequality in intelligence, discipline, responsibility and respect for one's self/society.


Luck enters into it.

Bill gates has all those qualities and he is also very lucky. He tried to sell Windows to IBM. He attempted to make the biggest mistake in the history of business.

Before Microsoft Gates was asked to come up with an operating system quickly. He used some elses. It was called: "Q-dos" for "quick and dirty operating system".

Gates was a smart guy who was in the right place at the right time.

I'm an elitist. I believe in cultivating one's talent and intellect in order to make things better for oneself and for the world.

Luck tends to play a really large part in acquisition of large amounts of money though.
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By QatzelOk
#13153792
SimCity4 is part of 'capitalism'. It was created by free enterprise.

It was created from within free enterprise - not by it. The game designers are mostly communists.

Socialists could have created this game as well, if they had built enough boring suburbia to make it necessary.

Oh wait. Boring, look-alike, soul-killing suburbia. Thank you, free enterprise.
By Landoflincoln
#13153845
It is hard to fully understand what Junger is saying when he says this; rather, it is knowledge that only a few can relate to.


I am not sure that the optimal way to begin a discussion is to automatically limit the possible respondents to those who presumably agree with the OP? Nevertheless I do not think that the point being made is entirely valid.

The luxury of the rich and the privileged is they already have a maintained set of pride and face; they can feel free to attempt to coddle the impoverished with socialism and turn is into infantile victims. They want to become our parents -- parents we do not need. They want to be our providers -- providers we do not need.


This is where I think the author fails at the outset. The luxury of the rich and privileged is not necessarily in a “maintained set of pride and face” but in the fact that the opportunities available to them are much more extensive than those of lesser means. Recognition that talent is not limited to the moneyed economic classes is hardly socialistic or parental. Likewise recognition that the opportunities available to the moneyed economic classes are disproportionate is hardly illogical.

The most insidious figures in politics are the celebrities with their millions of dollars who campaign for us to get more help from the government; they are so miserable even with their own wealth they have to attempt to adopt we the people as their Holy Cause. We all become one of Madonna or Angelina Jolie's third world children to put on display for their feel good charities.


This paragraph makes a number of mistakes and presumptions that are unsupported. I do agree that we give people like Madonna and Angelina Jolie a disproportionate amount of attention, but the implication that they are the “most insidious figures in politics” is an automatic attempt to poison any action they may undertake. Additionally, the claim that they are miserable and their actions are based on their misery is another unnecessary editorialization. Actual discussion of their actions is absent, which is odd. If their actions are so terrible, why are these actions not addressed instead of the individuals themselves?

The blessing of the impoverished is the struggle of their journey and the meaningfulness of that plight; the beauty of the common man is his attempts to become uncommon and distinguished, and it is in the simple joys that he receives from a simplistic existence.


This is a statement I would agree with if it were not laced with editorial. I agree that achievement is a positive, that distinguishing oneself is again positive, but the tie to impoverishment is unnecessary. If you are born to parents, both of which are doctors, is your completion of medical school not as satisfactory as if your parents were plumbers?

All of our accomplishments are our own.


This is decidedly untrue. Our accomplishments, any accomplishments we may make, are dependent on a list of people, opportunities, circumstances, etc… that need to be recognized. Let’s take the newly graduated doctor above. He or she depended on each teacher, professor, the monetary support from parents/scholarships/federal aids, emotional support from friends and associates, spiritual support from pastors/rabbis/etc…, support of many forms and many types to accomplish their graduation. Certainly they relied on their individualized intelligence and drive, but these two characteristics were shaped, molded, formed, and honed by numerous associations.

Unfortunately for many Republicans, Hillary Clinton was entirely correct, it does take a village to raise a child.

Egalitarianism from this angle is wrong if it goes any further than providing a level playing field. But what is most disgusting concerning egalitarianism is the morally reprehensible collectivism that threatens to crush the individual. The attempt to join us together, ever and ever closer, to steal our personal identities in the name of a higher cause. We join together -- but not out of choice. Out of perverse elections we give power to men who seek more power to control our lives; you vote my rights away every time that you elect a socialist who has a better idea on what to do with my money than I do.


This is a leap that I hardly think is justified or warranted. Clearly the OP wants to assert that there is an attempt to impose collectivism, but without any real evidence or examples it is an empty claim that is almost impossible to discuss. The implication is that socialism is somehow negative, but this is again an editorial statement and not an argument. Some organizations are socialist and it is acceptable, the military for example, while others are not. When “Socialism” is simply used as a word to discredit instead of an actual argument against the idea that the government should be involved in some area, it is an empty assertion.

In a socialist society the government usurps the role of parent and takes the common person to mold into an image they find appealing.


Unfortunately this assertion lacks any form of support or factual proof. Again the real argument here is “Socialism is bad” which is empty.

Whether it is something as inoccuous as "standing against racism" or "fighting terror," or something so personal as to placing sin taxes on our alcohol and cigarettes and fighting hard for the normalization of every perversion.


And how exactly are laws against racial/religious/sex discrimination bad? How does that mold people into am image that the government finds appealing? As a society I thought that we agreed that discrimination was unacceptable? It is true that inclusion into the American society does enforce some standards, but this is part of the social contract. We also do not allow murder, but I did not think this was an unnecessary restriction on personal liberty.

And those who do not join in the lines of the government propaganda become social pariahs or even 'un-American;' but, in that case, who wants to be an American if it means a subscription to a repugnant socialist dream?


Being American does have definitional restraints, but also allows questioning the nature and scope of government.

In socialism, we no longer stand on our own feet, but we stand as dependents on a government that now provides us with our moral constructs and systems; a government that has messages it attempts to force on us and usually succeeds until we all suckle on the teet of soul erasing collectivism.


Again you have jumped to an unsupported conclusion without any real argument.

If we become a part of a socialist society, as Junger said, we are morally and physically ruined.


Could you quote the paragraph immediately before and after the quote you have provided. I am curious about context.

It is our duty to ourselves, to our very souls, that we bow down not to any system which is so empowered to control us all.


At the end this argument is about fear. You fear the government and are automatically distrustful of anything the government does. I think that is unwise.
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By RonPaulalways
#13154134
landoflincoln wrote: At the end this argument is about fear. You fear the government and are automatically distrustful of anything the government does. I think that is unwise.


It's wise to be wary of the controls others exert on you. Government is control.

Norapture wrote:What really causes the inequality is the structure of the society itself, which fosters and nurtures inequality as part of its system of economics.


Free enterprise doesn't foster inequality, it merely allows it. In a free market, inequality comes from unequal levels of production, value creation, etc.

Obviously meritocratic capitalism couldn't function if everyone treated everyone else as economic equals.


Meritocratic capitalism would function just fine if every one had the same level of competency/earning potential.

It seems like you're trying to push the "capitalist society as insidious victimizer" mythology. Inequality is a natural consequence of variety.
By grassroots1
#13154140
It's wise to be wary of the controls others exert on you. Government is control.


Agree 100%.
As is wealth.
By Landoflincoln
#13154145
RonPaulalways wrote:It's wise to be wary of the controls others exert on you. Government is control.


There is a wide gulf between wariness and outright fear. Wariness is natural, and is a built in part of the US governmental system. What is passing as politics these days from Republicans (not Conservatives) is not wariness but ignorance and fear, and manipulation and exploitation of that ignorance and fear.

RonPaulalways wrote:Free enterprise doesn't foster inequality, it merely allows it. In a free market, inequality comes from unequal levels of production, value creation, etc.


But the free market is a myth. It does not exist any more than the Utopia exists. It is a good assumption for economic modeling and for philosophical underpinning, but realism dictates that the inherent flaws in the capitalistic system that ultimately create the inequality are recognized and, as much as possible, ameliorated.

RonPaulalways wrote:Meritocratic capitalism would function just fine if every one had the same level of competency/earning potential.


This will never happen. And furthermore, those with similar talents will never develop them with the same level of utility because of inherent inequities in any social undertaking.

RonPaulalways wrote:It seems like you're trying to push the "capitalist society as insidious victimizer" mythology. Inequality is a natural consequence of variety.


True, but there is also generated inequality that has nothing to do with natural consequence.
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By RonPaulalways
#13154242
grass, wealth only exerts control through government or other coercive means. By itself it is not control of people.

landoflincoln wrote:RonPaulalways wrote:
It's wise to be wary of the controls others exert on you. Government is control.


There is a wide gulf between wariness and outright fear. Wariness is natural, and is a built in part of the US governmental system. What is passing as politics these days from Republicans (not Conservatives) is not wariness but ignorance and fear, and manipulation and exploitation of that ignorance and fear.


I don't think the OP is expressing irrational fear of government. It's a healthy dose of concern about ever increasing government intrusion into people's personal lives through policies that place uniform mandates on the population.

RonPaulalways wrote:
Free enterprise doesn't foster inequality, it merely allows it. In a free market, inequality comes from unequal levels of production, value creation, etc.


But the free market is a myth. It does not exist any more than the Utopia exists. It is a good assumption for economic modeling and for philosophical underpinning, but realism dictates that the inherent flaws in the capitalistic system that ultimately create the inequality are recognized and, as much as possible, ameliorated.


Of course nothing exists in its pure form, but I'm saying that the free market aspects of society do not foster inequality. It is the non-free market aspects of society that foster inequality: big government, political cronyism, etc, and the right response to these things is not to further move away from free markets with more government interventions, but to eliminate those non-free market policies that are fostering the inequality.

RonPaulalways wrote:
Meritocratic capitalism would function just fine if every one had the same level of competency/earning potential.


This will never happen.


Of course it won't happen. My only point is to refute the comment I was responding to:

Obviously meritocratic capitalism couldn't function if everyone treated everyone else as economic equals.

RonPaulalways wrote:
It seems like you're trying to push the "capitalist society as insidious victimizer" mythology. Inequality is a natural consequence of variety.


True, but there is also generated inequality that has nothing to do with natural consequence.


Those are government interventions that violate the principles of a free market. Those should be eliminated as much as possible, not patched up with even more government interventions that create their own problems and inequalities.
By grassroots1
#13154264
grass, wealth only exerts control through government or other coercive means. By itself it is not control of people.


'Or other coercive means?' Such as...

Money sitting in a room doesn't coerce people, people using the money to coerce people... coerces people.
By Red Scourge
#13154388
Personally, I like many of the Conservative Revolutionary thinkers in the early 20th century, especially Junger(read Storm of Steel, it's an excellent autobiography on WWI combat). But, however i don't necessarily buy the argument about egalitarianism from Junger (although demagougery itself can be dangerous).

The OP dealt with some interesting issues that i would like to discuss. First off, let's talk specifically about Junger's intellectual background. Most of the Conservative Revolutionary theorists were arch-conservatives, strongly committed to duty and hierarchy. Junger himself was much opposed to certain bougeois values. Opting more for a warrior code of morality, more in league with ancient thinkers or possibly even something medieval. Many of the Conservative Revoltionary thinkers of the time idealized the Ancien Regime or even older civilizations (Rome comes to mind). Men like Julius Evola were fierce monarchists and supporters of a feudal state. Although some drifted into Fascism later on.

"Egalitarianism from this angle is wrong if it goes any further than providing a level playing field."- Verv
This might be just a hunch on my part but I don't even think men like Junger would have even supported this formal equality, since that in itself is an Enlightenment concept, a worldview that most of the thinkers within the reactionary conservative movement would have opposed.

As for your comments about socialism being some kind of ideology obsessed with parenting all the members of society, this is a gross miscalculation i believe. First off, Socialism is not welfare statism, and is not feel good liberalism. Socialism at least of the revolutionary Marxist or even of the anarchist or syndicalist variety is more about power displacement. Just as the monarchs of Europe were felled by the rising commercial classes, so the capitalists will be felled by the world-wide union of workers and their property carved up. Socialism is not about sucking up to the wealthy members of society or do-gooders for handouts or table scraps, It's about creating a new civilization through struggle and solidarity-which does let individual deeds of heroism shine. Thus it is active not passive.

"In socialism, we no longer stand on our own feet, but we stand as dependents on a government that now provides us with our moral constructs and systems; a government that has messages it attempts to force on us and usually succeeds until we all suckle on the teet of soul erasing collectivism."-Verv

If any system creates soul erasing collectivism it is the advanced stages of consumer capitalism which take from us our identities and sell back to us pre-made lifestyles that we buy into to kill the time of our meaningless, directionless existences. Socialism allows us to retake society and re-build it in our own image on an associative basis.
By Kman
#13154510
And what in your opinion causes the ineptness of the worse performing demographics?


That they are stupid, nothing else, if your stupid in america then your not gonna do well.

It really annoys me how the left try and make excuses 24/7 instead of facing reality, its always the ''white man'' keeping them down, lets ignore the fact that Africa which is virtually empty of white people (South Africa being the exception) are all shitholes rife with oppression and badly run economies.

When you say this the leftists ofc also try and make excuses for Africa, ''its because of the colonists that where there 60 years ago, that is why they are poor'' (Hong kong and India where british colonies also, but they are doing fine).
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By Suska
#13154671
you dunno what youre talking about Kman. African culture's don't want an island full of skyscrapers, a doobie and someone to bang drums with would be fine. Nobody on our side of the isle has a burning need for more problems and they'd say the same. You're white mans burden is a victory theory doesn't hold water.
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By MB.
#13154754
Kman wrote:When you say this the leftists ofc also try and make excuses for Africa, ''its because of the colonists that where there 60 years ago, that is why they are poor'' (Hong kong and India where british colonies also, but they are doing fine).


So, you've never studied African history?
By Kman
#13154759
So, you've never studied African history?


Why do you ask this? if you wanna dispute my claim then do so, dont try and discredit my opinion with a question like that, I know enough about african history and culture to give my opinion.
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By MB.
#13154763
What textbooks, museums or experts have you consulted with regard to Africa's history? Have you visited Africa recently (or frequently)?
By Evilive
#13155254
Qatzel Ok wrote:SimCity4 is a hundred times more powerful than the software required to replace capitalism.


Funny you mention this, because 've been playing SimCity4 recently. I tried making a town called "Qatzville" based around education, medical care and mass transit, and to be fair, its been a failure. :| I just ended up launching a meteor at it. :O
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