Right Wing Socialism? - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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As either the transitional stage to communism or legitimate socio-economic ends in its own right.
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By SSDR
#14975251
Socialism is just an economic system, it is not a political system. Some Political systems that use socialist economics would include communism, Marxism, Stalinism, Trotskyism, Western Marxism, Eurocommunism, left communism, Sorelism, Christian Socialism, Zionist socialism, National Bolshevikism, or Democratic socialism.

You can be both a fascist and a socialist. A fascist can use socialist economics to reach some fascist ideas, such as National Glory, restoration of culture, or maintaining social order to prevent liberal social decay.

There are socialists that support a state, like myself. And then there are socialists that advocate anarchy, like some of the people on RevLeft. But a lot of socialists that support a fascist political system don't label themselves right wing, they label themselves Third Position.
By Doug64
#15100216
SSDR wrote:Socialism is just an economic system, it is not a political system. Some Political systems that use socialist economics would include communism, Marxism, Stalinism, Trotskyism, Western Marxism, Eurocommunism, left communism, Sorelism, Christian Socialism, Zionist socialism, National Bolshevikism, or Democratic socialism.

You missed both Mussolini's original Fascism and National Socialism, both of which were socialistic.

You can be both a fascist and a socialist. A fascist can use socialist economics to reach some fascist ideas, such as National Glory, restoration of culture, or maintaining social order to prevent liberal social decay.

Since true fascists are by definition socialists, that's not hard. The difference between the Italian Socialist movement that Mussolini was a member of up through WWI and his Fascist movement after was that the Socialist movements up to the war were international in character (many of its leaders were stunned and dismayed to learn when the war came that national pride outweighed class solidarity) while Mussolini's later brand of socialism was nationalistic. Not that that was unique, the Left leading up to WWI had been somewhat divided on the issue of imperialism. Though Mussolini pretty much ignored the Left's obsession with eugenics at the time, it was the Nazis that took that to its logical extremes.
#15100254
Pants-of-dog wrote:This term is an oxymoron.

Fascism and s9cialism are not the same, in any way.


Except for the whole tyrannical totalitarian government thingy, the blame a scapegoat group for all ills in society thingy, and the terrible ideas relegated to the dust-bin of history thingy.
#15100259
Unthinking Majority wrote:Except for the whole tyrannical totalitarian government thingy,


Fascism is, by definition, authoritarian. Socialism is not.

the blame a scapegoat group for all ills in society thingy,


Fascists blame foreigners and minorities. I have no idea how this accusation applies to socialism.

and the terrible ideas relegated to the dust-bin of history thingy.


Not really.

https://washingtonmonthly.com/2017/01/3 ... f-fascism/

[list]
If you go to the U.S. Holocaust Museum, you can see a sign hanging there that tells you what to look for if you’re worried that your country may be slipping into fascism. Let’s take a look at their twelve early warning signs of fascism.

UNITED STATES HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM
EARLY WARNING SIGNS OF FASCISM

1. Powerful and continuing nationalism
2. Disdain for human rights
3. Identification of enemies as a unifying cause
4. Rampant sexism
5. Controlled mass media
6. Obsession with national security
7. Religion and government intertwined
8. Corporate power protected
9. Labor power suppressed
10. Disdain for intellectual and the arts
11. Obsession with crime and punishment
12. Rampant cronyism and corruption

Which of these is no longer a reality?

Which is not present in the USA?
#15100301
Pants-of-dog wrote:Fascism is, by definition, authoritarian. Socialism is not.


Name a country where the means of production has been commonly owned that wasn't a dictatorship that spat on human rights.

You can't have a socialist country without forcefully trapping everyone inside the country because otherwise many people with talent or ambition would leave. Because they can make more money elsewhere instead of giving it away for free. Socialism is benevolence at gunpoint.

Fascists blame foreigners and minorities. I have no idea how this accusation applies to socialism.


Socialists blame the bourgeoisie for all the ills in society.
#15100303
Unthinking Majority wrote:Name a country where the means of production has been commonly owned that wasn't a dictatorship that spat on human rights.


Chile under Allende was headed there.

The Zapatistas in Mexico right now are another example.

Cuba is arguably not a dictatorship.

You can't have a socialist country without forcefully trapping everyone inside the country because otherwise many people with talent or ambition would leave. Because they can make more money elsewhere instead of giving it away for free. Socialism is benevolence at gunpoint.


Provide evidence of mass emigration under Allende or the Zapatistas. Thanks.

Socialists blame the bourgeoisie for all the ills in society.


No, we just “blame” them for acting in their class interests, which then causes a lot of social ills, or they end up supporting social ills because it is profitable.

And I do not blame them for that any more than I blame the lion for stealing the jackal’s kill.
#15100312
Pants-of-dog wrote:No, we just “blame” them for acting in their class interests, which then causes a lot of social ills, or they end up supporting social ills because it is profitable.

And I do not blame them for that any more than I blame the lion for stealing the jackal’s kill.


You seem mostly sane, and not filled with hatred and resentment. Please stay that way.
#15100315
This does not change the fact that it makes sense for the rest of us to get together and try to wrest power from the bourgeoisie in order to make a more just world.

We would be equally blameless.
#15100335
Pants-of-dog wrote:This term is an oxymoron.

Fascism and s9cialism are not the same, in any way.


I honestly do not know why they constantly keep conflating the two, the only thing I've managed to come up with is that the entire American political spectrum is nearly Anarchistic in comparison with the rest of the world's ideologies, and that to American thinkers almost any expression of State power one way or another is both ''Totalitarian'' and without any meaningful distinction between Fascism and Socialism.

As for ''Right-Wing Socialism'', of course it exists, Engels identified it long ago as a tendency, and Oswald Spengler was a typical proponent of it.
By Sivad
#15100387
Pants-of-dog wrote:Chile under Allende was headed there.

The Zapatistas in Mexico right now are another example.

Cuba is arguably not a dictatorship.


PoD person's secret is that he can convince himself of the most blatantly retarded bullshit imaginable.
By Doug64
#15102244
Pants-of-dog wrote:1. Powerful and continuing nationalism
2. Disdain for human rights
3. Identification of enemies as a unifying cause
4. Rampant sexism
5. Controlled mass media
6. Obsession with national security
7. Religion and government intertwined
8. Corporate power protected
9. Labor power suppressed
10. Disdain for intellectual and the arts
11. Obsession with crime and punishment
12. Rampant cronyism and corruption

There are only two of these that don’t apply equally well to Communism (understandable, the Fascists, Nazis, and Communists are the only truly socialistic governments we’ve seen)—nationalism and corporate power. Of course, the USSR was happy to make full use of nationalism during WWII when the Communists needed their slaves to fight in defense of a system they abhorred. And “corporate power” under the Nazi regime was the power to build what the government told you to build, however much it told you to build. The only difference between the Fascist and Communist forms of socialism is that the Fascists pretended that they still had a market economy and the Communists didn’t.
Last edited by Doug64 on 23 Jun 2020 15:43, edited 1 time in total.
#15102249
annatar1914 wrote:I honestly do not know why they constantly keep conflating the two, the only thing I've managed to come up with is that the entire American political spectrum is nearly Anarchistic in comparison with the rest of the world's ideologies, and that to American thinkers almost any expression of State power one way or another is both ''Totalitarian'' and without any meaningful distinction between Fascism and Socialism.


Exactly. Americans, and even people in the West more broadly, always use 'muh authoritarianism' to justify some kind of horseshoe theory as though it isn't actually a complete historical anomaly that liberalism has comprehensively enveloped their society.
By Doug64
#15102264
annatar1914 wrote:I honestly do not know why they constantly keep conflating the two ...

We aren’t, we’re just recognizing that both the original Fascists and the original Nazis were socialist organizations, as much extremes of the Left as the Communists.
#15102274
Doug64 wrote:There are only two of these that don’t apply equally well to Communism (understandable, the Fascists, Nazis, and Communists are the only truly socialistic governments we’ve seen)—nationalism and corporate power. Of course, the USSR was happy to make full use of nationalism during WWII when the Communists needed their slaves to fight in defense of a system they abhorred. And “corporate power” under the Nazi regime was the power to build what the government told you to build, however much it told you to build. The only difference between the Fascist and Communist forms of socialism is that the Fascists pretended that they still had a market economy and the Communists didn’t.


So Trump is a socialist?
By Doug64
#15102291
Pants-of-dog wrote:So Trump is a socialist?

No, if anyone was a socialist (of the Fascist variety) that would be Obama with Obamacare. Though since even there Obama “merely” went after the healthcare system he was an interventionist rather than a socialist.
#15102293
Doug64 wrote:No, if anyone was a socialist (of the Fascist variety) that would be Obama with Obamacare. Though since even there Obama “merely” went after the healthcare system he was an interventionist rather than a socialist.


No, Trump is basically hitting all ten of those signs.

So in your world, Trump is a socialist and Obama is a Nazi.

Ameristan is here.
#15102294
Doug64 wrote:We aren’t, we’re just recognizing that both the original Fascists and the original Nazis were socialist organizations, as much extremes of the Left as the Communists.


But you are doing just what I said, though. Following in the steps of none other than Ludwig Von Mises, you've gone and decided that corporatism is now communism because it allows for some degree of public ownership. This seems to suggest that the vast majority of the world's population are communists because they aren't all as insanely capitalist as the United States is.
By Doug64
#15102369
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