Socialism vs Capitalism: The Soho Debates - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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As either the transitional stage to communism or legitimate socio-economic ends in its own right.
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#15065768
Tainari88 wrote:
I don't know why this article is saying that? Because here? The opposite is going on, all I hear and read about is a flood of Central Americans getting visas for refugee status in the immigration offices and I have met many of them personally. I also have gotten groans and complaints about people with wealth being scrutinized.

I think if what you put up there is true? He has reversed that since March of last year. No one likes Trump here, pleasing Trump is not something AMLO wants or any morena official. I think it is like I suspect. AMLO talks pleasingly to the Trump admistration and does something different at home. For me? That is very common in political life here and also just in general regarding the Mexico/USA relationship.

It doesn't jibe with the on the ground realities ckaihatsu at all. There are massive amounts of foreigners from other Latin American nations here. And most of them have either expired visas, no visas or no authorization to stay. I think the source you cited wanted the Central Americans that wanted to stay in the USA to have the right to remain in Mexico indefinitely until the USA concedes asylum. They can stay in Mexico through a legal status that is on display in every immigration office in Mexico.

I read it and I sit next to them in line---the reality is that the Central Americans are making an error thinking that the fascist is going to let them in and they will be granted asylum. Mexico is far more stable than Honduras, El Salvador. I think the time thinking fascist man is going to let them in is over. He is pandering to the racists in the USA and historically leaving their nations thinking international law will be respected by the Trump administration is a pipe dream at this moment in history.



Okay, I hear you, Tainari. Just remembered it so I thought I'd post it.

Your description, though, *does* correlate to the description of the situation from the WSWS article -- more refugees from Central America are having to remain in Mexico.

Worse is that Trump has *killed* several immigrants, both adults and children, by interning them in those detention centers in the U.S.

Thanks for the feedback, take care.


Chris
#15065771
[quote="ckaihatsu"]Okay, I hear you, Tainari. Just remembered it so I thought I'd post it.

Your description, though, *does* correlate to the description of the situation from the WSWS article -- more refugees from Central America are having to remain in Mexico.

Worse is that Trump has *killed* several immigrants, both adults and children, by interning them in those detention centers in the U.S.

Thanks for the feedback, take care.
[quote]

https://www.bbc.com/mundo/noticias-amer ... a-48699883

There is a type of Marshall plan for Central America. The issue becomes if it has enough funding to be effective. That is the issue with taxes here. You got to have taxes to implement these plans.

One, anecdote that I do know? I have met ten Venezuelans and none have visas and legal status. All are working and no one fears Mexican immigration. Same thing for Guatemalans, Honduras, and El Salvador. They have consulates in this city. I walk by two of them all the time. No deportations from Mexican immigration.

The issue becomes if these Central Americans on the border can get asylum. No, they can't under the fascist. They can't.

They are risking dying in ICE custody. And this horror was posted by another person on this forum....

Trump is erasing the historical record of his ICE crimes.
#15065786
ckaihatsu wrote:Okay, I hear you, Tainari. Just remembered it so I thought I'd post it.

Your description, though, *does* correlate to the description of the situation from the WSWS article -- more refugees from Central America are having to remain in Mexico.

Worse is that Trump has *killed* several immigrants, both adults and children, by interning them in those detention centers in the U.S.

Thanks for the feedback, take care.


Chris


Chris, you have to see that Central America is in crisis. It has economic problems, crime problems, violence problems and incompetent governments. So they flee to get to stability. Guatemala is to the South of Chiapas state the southern most Mexican state that shares ethnic Mayan communities on both sides of the border. That border is porous and easy to penetrate. The Guatemalan Mayan communities there have large amounts of relatives making money in states like Florida, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, etc because they go with the crops and picking the crops that are seasonal. They think they can get stable jobs in the USA that guarantee USA federal minimum wages that for them is a fortune. So they seek some kind of ability to enter the USA for that. They also run from criminal gangs, corrupt law enforcement and drug gangs dedicated to recruiting their sons and daughters for either being their foot soldiers or human traffickers. It is horrific.

The reality is that they need to change the economy in El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala, very few Nicaraguans are making the journey because Nicaragua is growing economically and has stabilized with a steady government for years. It used to be a basket case in the early 1980's but no longer has instability. So the Nicaraguans are staying put.

My mother did a literacy campaign there long ago....if you get literate people, stable government and economic improvements and investments over time in the country? You get stability and eventually no one leaves for the USA. The USA should be investing in humanitarian, education, health and housing programs for all of Central America. They don't. They want to suck our blood and let us die or starve without an alternative in order to give in to a bunch of corporations and banks and American geopolitical interests in the region. They are vampires the USA gov't is a vampire. So? What is the choice for the ones fleeing this shit?

I tell them all the time...stay in Mexico. Don't leave. Get a job. Get your permanent refugee status. Send your kids to free public schools in Mexico. They want the higher paying wages in the USA...not the $2 dollars an hour they get in Mexico....I tell them, Ït is either that or being arrested having your kid caged in a cold detention center, having a criminal record and never being able to enter the USA legally to see your family members again and risking your life for an existence that is not good. The USA's economy doesn't have plentiful jobs anymore for unskilled, low educational achievement people with zero English, and the Native American people there have died trying to defend their rights to no avail. It is not paradise. Whatever you have heard about easy living is a fiction. You need to stabilize your own nations, stay in Mexico and give your kids stability in Mexico. The Mexicans are stuck with $2 dollars an hour wages as well. Welcome to the reason why no one is making money. You need to change that circumstances. People in the USA who are citizens of the USA can't make end's meet either on their minimum wage jobs as well. It is time to face and confront the rich and powerful. And each nation's lower class workers need to make it a priority."

They are very very intelligent people @ckaihatsu and they understand but no one explains the USA at all to people. I am working on a project for immigrants. I am going to create along with my husband an Immigration Kit for people who leave nations with totally different cultures, economies, languages and circumstances and professions to enter into nations from the first world and from a totally different set of circumstances.

They need to be prepared with great information before realizing what all this change from one reality and world to another is about and consists of....Americans also are ignorant of what conditions are like in Africa, Latin America, part of Asia and even Middle East, Europe versus some commercial zombie suburb in the USA. It is a profound lack of understanding. As a cultural anthropologist for years I see a need for something timely and appropriate. The Immigrant Kit is that project.
#15065787
I think the biggest problem with socialism is that since socialism requires more intervention from the state to manage the economy its basically giving more power to the government which eventually leads to authoritarianism

there is a differance between social economies and social policies
Scandinavian countries have implemented socialist policies but their economies are capitalist
#15066076
Tainari88 wrote:
Chris, you have to see that Central America is in crisis. It has economic problems, crime problems, violence problems and incompetent governments. So they flee to get to stability. Guatemala is to the South of Chiapas state the southern most Mexican state that shares ethnic Mayan communities on both sides of the border. That border is porous and easy to penetrate. The Guatemalan Mayan communities there have large amounts of relatives making money in states like Florida, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, etc because they go with the crops and picking the crops that are seasonal. They think they can get stable jobs in the USA that guarantee USA federal minimum wages that for them is a fortune. So they seek some kind of ability to enter the USA for that. They also run from criminal gangs, corrupt law enforcement and drug gangs dedicated to recruiting their sons and daughters for either being their foot soldiers or human traffickers. It is horrific.

The reality is that they need to change the economy in El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala, very few Nicaraguans are making the journey because Nicaragua is growing economically and has stabilized with a steady government for years. It used to be a basket case in the early 1980's but no longer has instability. So the Nicaraguans are staying put.

My mother did a literacy campaign there long ago....if you get literate people, stable government and economic improvements and investments over time in the country? You get stability and eventually no one leaves for the USA. The USA should be investing in humanitarian, education, health and housing programs for all of Central America. They don't. They want to suck our blood and let us die or starve without an alternative in order to give in to a bunch of corporations and banks and American geopolitical interests in the region. They are vampires the USA gov't is a vampire. So? What is the choice for the ones fleeing this shit?

I tell them all the time...stay in Mexico. Don't leave. Get a job. Get your permanent refugee status. Send your kids to free public schools in Mexico. They want the higher paying wages in the USA...not the $2 dollars an hour they get in Mexico....I tell them, Ït is either that or being arrested having your kid caged in a cold detention center, having a criminal record and never being able to enter the USA legally to see your family members again and risking your life for an existence that is not good. The USA's economy doesn't have plentiful jobs anymore for unskilled, low educational achievement people with zero English, and the Native American people there have died trying to defend their rights to no avail. It is not paradise. Whatever you have heard about easy living is a fiction. You need to stabilize your own nations, stay in Mexico and give your kids stability in Mexico. The Mexicans are stuck with $2 dollars an hour wages as well. Welcome to the reason why no one is making money. You need to change that circumstances. People in the USA who are citizens of the USA can't make end's meet either on their minimum wage jobs as well. It is time to face and confront the rich and powerful. And each nation's lower class workers need to make it a priority."

They are very very intelligent people @ckaihatsu and they understand but no one explains the USA at all to people. I am working on a project for immigrants. I am going to create along with my husband an Immigration Kit for people who leave nations with totally different cultures, economies, languages and circumstances and professions to enter into nations from the first world and from a totally different set of circumstances.

They need to be prepared with great information before realizing what all this change from one reality and world to another is about and consists of....Americans also are ignorant of what conditions are like in Africa, Latin America, part of Asia and even Middle East, Europe versus some commercial zombie suburb in the USA. It is a profound lack of understanding. As a cultural anthropologist for years I see a need for something timely and appropriate. The Immigrant Kit is that project.



Sounds *excellent*, Tainari.

At some points in my life I thought we should get an introductory kit for living life itself, but mine never arrived in the mail. (grin)

I hear you on everything you're describing about Central America. I'm getting caught-up here-and-there myself, and recent geopolitical conditions are pointing everyone in that direction now.

Okay, cool, then, take care, later.


Chris



--
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#15066081
Zionist Nationalist wrote:
I think the biggest problem with socialism is that since socialism requires more intervention from the state to manage the economy its basically giving more power to the government which eventually leads to authoritarianism



This is a common misconception -- that historical Stalinism, or so-called 'socialism-in-one-country', is somehow *desirable* as a political aim. It *isn't*. It resulted from the revisionism (softening of the socialist aim) that resulted from Allied invasion of the nascent Bolshevik Revolution:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_in ... _Civil_War


Although the world's working class *may* use a hierarchical workers state as a vehicle for repressing and overthrowing the bourgeoisie during the course of revolution, afterward there would no longer be a class enemy, and humanity could self-organize production without any hindrances from private claims, for the first time ever. It would be a classless and stateless global society.

I recently made a graphic illustration of *how* this dynamic could happen:


Emergent Central Planning

Spoiler: show
Image



Also, btw:


Political Spectrum, Simplified

Spoiler: show
Image



---


Zionist Nationalist wrote:
there is a differance between social economies and social policies
Scandinavian countries have implemented socialist policies but their economies are capitalist



Yes, Scandinavian countries are capitalist with better social programs than most, but such isn't really 'socialism', since socialism is all about workers collective power over society's production, particularly the factories. What *you're* thinking of is called 'social democracy':


Ideologies & Operations -- Fundamentals

Spoiler: show
Image
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