Technocracy vs. Communism - Page 6 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15183782
ckaihatsu wrote:

Some would find this kind of statement to be socially *problematic*, and even racist -- maybe what you're indicating is that China, in particular, has had solidly *bureaucratic* rule throughout its history, while the West had the prevailing of its *bourgeoisie* (merchants), over the state, by comparison.


Anyone that would call it racist is a fucking moron.

Many Easy Asian cultures (not just Chinese) don't have cultures that emphasis hierarchical order? More over, these cultures do not emphasis respect and obedience towards elders (and by extension those in power)?

news to me

My initial statement is true in the west, as it is in the east. It just so happens that in the modern era we see that dynamic a bit more in the east.
Last edited by Rancid on 03 Aug 2021 19:33, edited 1 time in total.
#15183783
B0ycey wrote:
I guess the point I was making was as soon as someone is appointed leadership, whatever the reason or however it occurred, a government is basically created. Hierarchy creates governance. How can you get round that? Anyone who suggests that Anarchy or that no government is needed within society, is really someone who doesn't understand that government is merely the body of social organisation whilst hierarchy and appointment are the starting block to form a government. That isn't me being negative on Anarcy, Technocracy or even Socialism/Capitalism. It is merely pointing out that to suggest any form of economy you create, whether you eliminate the previous governance you had before or not, once you start appointing people of leadership/power/responsibility, what you create is a government by default.



Well, the *logistical* question / issue here is 'What societal need is filled by the role of government / administration?'


History, Macro-Micro -- politics-logistics-lifestyle

Spoiler: show
Image



*Anyone* can get up on a soapbox and pontificate endlessly, but more to the point is *what interests* are they speaking for.

Under capitalism government represents *ruling class* interests, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the case, if society at some point disallows private (property) interests.

Right now there's the *evictions* issue, and we're seeing that the interests of *landlords* are being favored by 'governance', over the interests of *people* to keep living in the home they're in.



The truth is that the eviction moratorium was allowed to expire because there is no significant support within the US ruling elite for social reform measures, let alone actions that would impinge on the profit interests of landlords, who include not just so-called “mom-and-pop” owners of a few properties, but giant financial concerns that control real estate empires.



https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/0 ... c-a03.html



---


I'll proffer, myself, that, logistically, representative personages themselves are no longer functionally needed, due to current advanced communications networking technologies (the Internet).

By way of illustration my 'communist supply and demand' model has these components:



consumption [demand] -- Every person in a locality has a standard, one-through-infinity ranking system of political demands available to them, updated daily


consumption [demand] -- Basic human needs will be assigned a higher political priority by individuals and will emerge as mass demands at the cumulative scale -- desires will benefit from political organizing efforts and coordination


consumption [demand] -- A regular, routine system of mass individual political demand pooling -- as with spreadsheet templates and email -- must be in continuous operation so as to aggregate cumulative demands into the political process



https://web.archive.org/web/20201211050 ... ?p=2889338



labor credits framework for 'communist supply & demand'

Spoiler: show
Image


https://web.archive.org/web/20201211050 ... ?p=2889338
#15183785
Rancid wrote:
Anyone that would call it racist is a fucking moron.

Many Easy Asian cultures (not just Chinese) don't have cultures that emphasis hierarchical order? More over, these cultures do not emphasis respect and obedience towards elders (and by extension those in power)?

news to me



'Culture' isn't the same thing as 'government / bureaucratic structure, interests, and functioning'.

(Hence my treatment, from previously.)
#15183786
ckaihatsu wrote:

'Culture' isn't the same thing as 'government / bureaucratic structure, interests, and functioning'.

(Hence my treatment, from previously.)


No shit. The point I was making is that culture predisposes a population to be accepting/supportive of certain styles of governance.

Culture includes values and ideas on how society should function, and what is best of society. NATURALLY, this would bleed into philosophies on how to run a government. If you have a culture that values hierarchy, obedience, strength, etc, etc. They are more likely to accept a strongman, they are more likely to accept authoritarianism. We've seen this in the west as much as in the east.
#15183787
ckaihatsu wrote:Well, the *logistical* question / issue here is 'What societal need is filled by the role of government / administration?'


History, Macro-Micro -- politics-logistics-lifestyle

Spoiler: show
Image



*Anyone* can get up on a soapbox and pontificate endlessly, but more to the point is *what interests* are they speaking for.

Under capitalism government represents *ruling class* interests, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the case, if society at some point disallows private (property) interests.

Right now there's the *evictions* issue, and we're seeing that the interests of *landlords* are being favored by 'governance', over the interests of *people* to keep living in the home they're in.


You haven't really answered the question I asked though @ckaihatsu. How do you prevent a government from forming? This isn't a question on Capitalism or a way to prevent a government of self interest, but stopping government in general whatever its form.

Also, the best person I am aware of on a soapbox was Trotsky given he was basically the voice that galvanised the Soviets and he was a Socialist...and a Socialist that mirrors your own opinion I might add. But even though he spoke about Marx and the elimination of the Tsars, he was also part of the Bolsheviks which formed a government. Basically he called for the end of one power and ultimately created another. How do you stop that from happening?
#15183788
Rancid wrote:
No shit. The point I was making is that culture predisposes a population to be accepting/supportive of certain styles of governance.

Culture includes values and ideas on how society should function, and what is best of society. NATURALLY, this would bleed into philosophies on how to run a government. If you have a culture that values hierarchy, obedience, strength, etc, etc. They are more likely to accept a strongman, they are more likely to accept authoritarianism. We've seen this in the west as much as in the east.



Okay, but I'll suggest that what you're describing is actually *nationalism*, which is about a certain point in the history of societal material development, both East and West.

Nationalism / nationalist consolidation and identity isn't going to be empirically encouraged across *all* historical timeframes -- currently we're seeing *severe* friction between nationalist-type governance, and fully-international economic relations (the 'free market') -- as with Iran in particular.
#15183789
B0ycey wrote:
You haven't really answered the question I asked though @ckaihatsu. How do you prevent a government from forming? This isn't a question on Capitalism or a way to prevent a government of self interest, but stopping government in general whatever its form.

Also, the best person I am aware of on a soapbox was Trotsky given he was basically the voice that galvanised the Soviets and he was a Socialist...and a Socialist that mirrors your own opinion I might add. But even though he spoke about Marx and the elimination of the Tsars, he was also part of the Bolsheviks which formed a government. Basically he called for the end of one power and ultimately created another. How do you stop that from happening?



As I said previously, I'm *not* an anarchist -- I have no problem with societal administration, and all the better if it's extended to be by the world's *working class*.

Yeah, I'm basically a Trotskyist.
#15183790
ckaihatsu wrote:As I said previously, I'm *not* an anarchist -- I have no problem with societal administration, and all the better if it's extended to be by the world's *working class*.

Yeah, I'm basically a Trotskyist.


Well that is fine, but then I don't understand why you quoted me when I asked @Kolzene that very question (on Technocracy).
#15184254
Rancid wrote:
I'm all for smashing capitalism, so long as whatever replaces it isn't some dystopian hellscape.



ckaihatsu wrote:
Me too.



---



Khrushchev told the stunned delegates that Stalin, who had long been venerated in the Soviet Union as a demi-god, was, in fact, a political criminal, responsible for the murder of thousands of Bolshevik leaders and loyal communists. He stated:


Stalin acted not through persuasion, explanation, and patient cooperation with people, but by imposing his concepts and demanding absolute submission to his opinion. Whoever opposed these concepts or tried to prove his [own] viewpoint and the correctness of his [own] position was doomed to removal from the leadership collective and to subsequent moral and physical annihilation. This was especially true during the period following the 17th Party Congress [in 1934], when many prominent Party leaders and rank-and-file Party workers, honest and dedicated to the cause of Communism, fell victim to Stalin’s despotism. …

Stalin originated the concept “enemy of the people.” … It made possible the use of the cruelest repression, violating all norms of revolutionary legality, against anyone who in any way disagreed with Stalin.… On the whole, the only proof of guilt actually used, against all norms of current legal science, was the “confession” of the accused himself. As subsequent probing has proven, “confessions” were acquired through physical pressures against the accused. This led to glaring violations of revolutionary legality and to the fact that many entirely innocent individuals—[persons] who in the past had defended the Party line—became victims. …

Arbitrary behavior by one person encouraged and permitted arbitrariness in others. Mass arrests and deportations of many thousands of people, execution without trial and without normal investigation created conditions of insecurity, fear and even desperation.

This, of course, did not contribute toward unity of the Party ranks and of all strata of working people, but, on the contrary, brought about annihilation and the expulsion from the Party of workers who were loyal but inconvenient to Stalin. [6]



https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/0 ... u-a05.html
#15226940
Opening Poster wrote:But it'll be like Star Trek, where it's all like high-tech and shit, and everything that we need will be provided by machines that operate on magic and the power of positive thinking

So you won't go to California for work, you won't go to Egypt for art, and you won't spend on Swiss engineers. A microprocessor does that for you. mmm, seems boring :)

It depends on which machines you use though.

The one who won the war, the ones who lost, or the terrorists!

Magic only distracts you till the terrorists get their job done.

Positive thinking is exit plan from the amazing world of sex toys. {hint: consider IoT instead}
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