Venus Project v. Technocracy Inc - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The solving of mankind’s problems and abolition of government via technological solutions alone.

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#14113413
The Venus Project is a somewhat popular, at least on the internet, alternative to the current system. There's many overlaps with Technocracy- eliminating the price system, creating effecient systems, providing technical solutions rather than political or economical ones to issues such as the environment, poverty, income inequality, etc.

So, is there a difference between these two groups, or is the Venus Project another form of technocracy?
#14113664
That's a fair point. While I tried to look through their files to see how things would work, I saw the vaguity you mentioned. On the other hand, just before I went through Technocracy.ca, which was cold, and half the links didn't work. Yet, you seem to have a more comprehensive plan than "Hey, look, you can order a house and it'll shape itself as you speak!"

To be honest, I'm suprised that last bit doesn't run people off laughing.
#14113683
How many people are involved in Technocracy Inc. anymore? A merger w/ TVP could provide the artistry you need, and help you back up TVP's lack of comprehensive planning.
#14113744
Yeah, the same issue arises for us on the far-right, who are supposed to be about placing ethnic heritage and culture above material interests, always end up splintering because of economicism. "I'm syndicalist", "I'm corporatist", "Let's try social credit..."

Well, how many of those hald-dozen still-actives are you in contact with? You could simply by-pass those refusing a merger. Remember, people are anascopic, not katascopic...
#14114015
I found this linked on the facebook Technocracy group. Might be worth a read to see what some Technocrats think about TVP.

The first criticism carries the most weight. TVP purports itself to be a global solution to scarcity. Besides the Earth not having enough resources to sustain the current world population at a high standard of living (see the thread titled "Carrying capacity and standard of living"), they have no such plans on how to achieve global abundance. Unlike TVP, Technocracy Inc. actually has detailed designs for a technate in North America. Even though Jacques Fresco claims he doesn't believe in Utopia, the system he's proposing seems very Utopian when you look at the details.

EDIT: By the way Kolzene, are you the webmaster of technocracy.ca? If so, you should know the FAQ portion of that site doesn't seem to work. All the links take you to blank pages.
#14114120
Greetings,

I was drawn to this thread via Google Alerts. I have been engaged in the last few years investigating Fresco and his history, sifting through is private documents and contacting human sources willing to provide historical insight.

Fresco knew Scott well and admired him greatly, considering him "the Charles Darwin of social change." Due to petty personal disagreements, Fresco withdrew from Technocracy, claiming that Scott's own personal prejudices were affecting the organization. Fresco now claims that in fact Technocracy had no design material. He claims he never saw anything during the time he participated in Technocracy Inc., except the design for continental hydrology. (Of course, that he never saw designs does not mean there aren't any). After withdrawing form Tech, Inc. he attempted to develop his own program, Project Americana, but was not very proactive. In the final years of Scott's life, Scott was contacted by a David London, a man researching and designing a course on technocratic/scientific government. David London was very involved with Fresco. At a time when there was concern for who would take over Technocracy Inc. if Scott were to pass, London raised interest in the possibility of Fresco taking over the organization, given Fresco's past involvement and lifelong adherence to technocratic/scientistic governance. Amidst negotiation with Scott about this shift, Scott passed, and others assumed the authority, with sentiments of resentment against Fresco. The same year (1970), Fresco toured the U.S. and lectured at conferences where he introduced what he was now calling, Sociocyberneering. With the extinguished prospect of steering Tech. Inc., Fresco endeavored to operate an organization anyway. Early the following year, 1971, Fresco founded and solicited Sociocyberneering Inc., with very little organizational progress for decades. Only in recent years have we seen this populist phenomenon surrounding the final gasps of his tired effort.

We can see the sensitive areas that are being encroached upon when proposing a merger between the Venus Project and Technocracy. I don't know to what extent the current authority is aware of these historical relations. But it is no surprise to me that both sides react irrationally despite the benefits of merging. As far as I know, Fresco remains open to it, but I would imagine it would have to be on his terms.

Letters exchanged and audio recordings of conversations between Fresco and John A. Taube and CHQ in the mid-1990s (at the outset of the Venus Project) provides evidence of Fresco seeking reconciliation and collaboration, but is rejected. It appears at that time, CHQ was no interested in making changes. This is also evident in a video recording of a meeting between Fresco and technocrats, Steve Doll, Angelus Philolias, and Walter Gnagy. Only Doll resolved to continue working with Fresco. However, perhaps there is prospects for collaboration in the future, once the disgruntled are no longer among us.

Regarding Fresco's lack of substance. It is important now to remember that Fresco is nearing 97 years. He is capable of no more than vague generalities, and it is the people around him that do his writings. Documentation over the last 40 years has revealed the further back one goes the more specific and focused he is regarding technical ideas. According to what I have seen, the peak of his technical design output was in the late 1970s/early 1980s. Thereafter, he was in decline. It appears to me, he is a man that has spun to shreds of knowledge. That is to say, any precise knowledge has frayed over the years due in part to his age, withdrawal from participation in technical fields for the last 35 years, and perhaps the effects manic obsession (madness). However, he has certainly maintained the style that Technocracy needs.
#14117068
Well, he's certainly been able to draw his share of attention. I suppose it makes sense he'd no longer be able to keep up with design changes, but it does not excuse a general lack of design by his associates. The one design of his I noticed was a Bering strait hydroelectric dam, "to power the third world" (despite the third world generally being much further south and loss of power the further lines go...).
#14117120
Paradigm, Technocracy no longer proposes energy credits. There were never a form of currency to begin with, but a form of accounting (remember, Technocracy Inc is nearly a hundred years old); logistics today has progressed beyond the need of physical certificates. For instance, Suzie's lemonade, or WalMart's barcode tracking.
#14127445
Biophily thank you for providing that information to us. Do you have the "Letters exchanged and audio recordings of conversations between Fresco and John A. Taube and CHQ in the mid-1990s" and the "video recording of a meeting between Fresco and technocrats, Steve Doll, Angelus Philolias, and Walter Gnagy"?
#14413858
"Well, of course, you see the reason we created Technocracy—with its underlying motive was we created it in such a manner that everybody would steal it. That clear? And claim it as their own. Now we nailed a social ante up at the top of the board. Everybody in any move is going, in any political or social crisis, to move their ante up closer to that, aren't they? They have to, because all over this continent they'll say, oh, hell, the Technocrats got you people beat a mile. Why bother with that nonsense? Each time any group or any political unit in this country attempts to get social insurance by giving away more or what? Now the more you load this internal mechanism up with the aged, with relief, with care, with social benefits, the more you are loading up this political-economic mechanism, correct? And there comes the day [WITH NON-PAYING] Right, and non-participating."

- BIRTHDAY TALK HOWARD SCOTT, NEW YORK 4-4-53
archive.org/details/TheWordsAndWisdomOfHowardScott

"Why did Technocracy raise its flag, its "social ante" at the top of the mast from the very start? So that any other organization, or any ideology, could steal it, if they could do any better than Technocracy proposes, but none can (1953)."

- IN GENERAL AND TECHNOCRACY THE ORGANIZATION
archive.org/details/TheWordsAndWisdomOfHowardScott

"Technocracy is the only program on this Continent with the intent of improving the living standard and security of all citizens on this Continent. Technocracy offers you the only pathway out of the woods of the Price System.

Should you, as an individual or as a minority group, endeavor to initiate a social program with similar objectives, you would have a long way to go to get as far as Technocracy has already come. It would take you years to gather the facts and derive the conclusions from them; then, it would take more years to formulate a scientifically designed program (and what other kind would be worth anything?) and build up an organization. Technocracy already has that much of a head start. But, suppose you should go ahead anyway, Technocracy would still have the reputation of having got the idea first; and your program would be dubbed 'Technocracy' which would throw all of your gains into the lap of Technocracy. In the meantime, you would not dare to make a slip, either in your analysis or synthesis; for, if you did, Technocracy would give it Continentwide publicity, and you know what that would mean. (Where are the American Communists? Le Bloc Populaire? The Cooperative Commonwealth Federation? And a number of others?)

There is only one Organization with a program adequate to meet the needs of the American people and to avert chaos. Technocracy alone goes to the center of the problem and points its finger at the Big Bug that is brooding all the little bugs in the social system of the Continent. This Big Bug is the Price System. Let's annihilate this one, and there won't be any more little ones to plague us. You can then throw away your wooden blocks and fly swatters and live in ease and security. Technocracy's design will not only eradicate the source of the Price System vermin, but will provide a system of social operation that guarantees a high standard of living, a high standard of health and education, a minimum of toil, and a maximum duration of high energy civilization."

- A CHANGE OF CONCEPTS
https://archive.org/details/MakeWayForSocialChange
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