[B0ycey]

It means if all your intelligence comes from repeating what teacher says then you are less intelligent than a pocket calculator and they are not even alive. In comparison the most brutish cave man is billion times as clever because he can think for himself.

Well I never said anything about "repeating what teacher said" so what the fuck has this got to do with anything?

I did not imply biology, intelligence and culture are the same thing. I said they are related. I think my exact words were "biology created your brain, your brain creates your intelligence and your intelligence creates your culture." This is absolutely factual.

You said false dichotomy. If they are not the same thing then they are different right? So you were completely wrong to use that phase if your weren't implying they are the same fucking thing. Whether there is correlation is irrelevant. Although a brain is only the tool for intelligence, education and experience creates it.

[late]

I tend to forget how limited a lot of you are.

As before, the start of morality is in our biology. But filtered through our culture.

But our culture is an ocean with many sources. Various religions, various philosophies, Western legal traditions that have their roots in the Roman Empire.

The Enlightenment plays an important role in American legal traditions. But Modern legal theories also play a key role.

The Modern era started in the 1800s, and there was some important legal thinkers back then, still worth studying.

We need to improve our descriptors. I, for one, have no intention of describing contemporary ethical thinking as post-Modern.

In any case, if you follow the high level thinking about things like abortion, you have seen the growing importance of bioethicists.

None of this is beyond the reach of the lay public as long as they are willing to do their due diligence. It's not easy, but it's not particularly hard compared to a lot of things, like philosophy, straight, no chaser.

[SolarCross]

Well I never said anything about "repeating what teacher said" so what the fuck has this got to do with anything?

You said false dichotomy. If they are not the same thing then they are different right? So you were completely wrong to use that phase if your weren't implying they are the same fucking thing. Whether there is correlation is irrelevant. Although a brain is only the tool for intelligence, education and experience creates it.

You want a tabula rasa, seemingly.

[B0ycey]

Do you ever read what I write properly @SolarCross? I don't doubt for one second that instinct and behaviour is biological. But I am absolutely certain that without the social contract the world will be a lot less picky when it comes to right and wrong. For morality to be biological you have to explain to me why humans from different backgrounds have different morals... go.

[SolarCross]

Do you ever read what I write properly? I don't doubt for one second that instinct and behaviour is biological. But I am absolutely certain that without the social contract the world will be a lot less picky when it comes to right and wrong. For morality to be biological you have to explain to me why humans from different backgrounds have different morals... go.

Perhaps you are not very good at expressing yourself?

Where does the "social contract" come from? Magic? Jesus? Or human brains...

[B0ycey]

Perhaps you are not very good at expressing yourself?

Where does the "social contract" come from? Magic? Jesus? Or human brains...

Society.

Now answer my question or be known as a Sea Lion.

[SolarCross]

Society.

Now answer my question or be known as a sealion.

"Society" is just a bunch of human brains negotiating with each other. Did teacher not tell you that?

[B0ycey]

"Society" is just a bunch of human brains negotiating with each other. Did teacher not tell you that?

Society is a collective of humans living together, didn't you know that?

Anyway you ignored my question again and asked another to dodgy the issue. That is called Sealioning and you are a Sea Lion. A low form of forum user that shows a lack of intelligence from those who practice it. Good day SolarCross.

[SolarCross]

Society is a collective of humans living together, didn't you know that?

Anyway you ignored my question again and asked another to dodgy the issue. That is called Sealioning and you are a Sea Lion. A low form of forum user that shows a lack of intelligence from those who practice it. Good day SolarCross.

Technically "society" is not a collective, humans are not ants.

[Potemkin]

Do you ever read what I write properly @SolarCross? I don't doubt for one second that instinct and behaviour is biological. But I am absolutely certain that without the social contract the world will be a lot less picky when it comes to right and wrong. For morality to be biological you have to explain to me why humans from different backgrounds have different morals... go.

Because different societies have different cultures. There are many, many different ways to be human. And different cultures teach their members different codes of morality. What is constant, however, is that all human societies have some sort of moral code. All humans have a moral sense, but the expression of that moral sense is culturally determined. The moral sense itself, however, is not culturally determined (since it seems to be universal across all human societies), but seems rather to be biologically determined, probably by some evolutionary process.

[B0ycey]

...however, is not culturaaly determined (since it seems to be universal across all human societies), but seems rather to be biologically determined, probably by some evolutionary process.

I disagree. I would even say morality is perhaps acts to submit instinct for social gain. That is to say that it is perhaps more human to fight, fuck and steal than to share marry and work for the man.

[late]

Because different societies have different cultures. There are many, many different ways to be human. And different cultures teach their members different codes of morality. What is constant, however, is that all human societies have some sort of moral code. All humans have a moral sense, but the expression of that moral sense is culturally determined. The moral sense itself, however, is not culturally determined (since it seems to be universal across all human societies), but seems rather to be biologically determined, probably by some evolutionary process.

We're monkeys. Which is to say we are in some ways tribal.

But, in a world where a typical country has thousands and thousands of treaties, understandings and alliances, not to mention the existence of nuclear weapons, it is horribly limited.

IOW, while the edifice of civilisation was built on top of our biology, the biological component is just a fragment of the whole.

[SolarCross]

Because different societies have different cultures. There are many, many different ways to be human. And different cultures teach their members different codes of morality. What is constant, however, is that all human societies have some sort of moral code. All humans have a moral sense, but the expression of that moral sense is culturally determined. The moral sense itself, however, is not culturaaly determined (since it seems to be universal across all human societies), but seems rather to be biologically determined, probably by some evolutionary process.

Every single human is constantly generating their own culture, and yes they copy others sometimes because that is often easier than making your own analysis.

Humans are not clones, excepting identical twins, so each individual would generate their own unique culture / moral sense even if that was 100% genetically predetermined. Cultural differences between individuals is not evidence of a non-biological origin of morality, it is to be expected in the case of genetic variety.

[Potemkin]

I disagree. I would even say morality is perhaps acts to submit instinct for social gain. That is to say that it is perhaps more human to fight, fuck and steal than to share marry and work for the man.

I disagree. There is nothing more human than to submit to authority.

[B0ycey]

There is nothing more human than to submit to authority.

Now you are talking like a Capitalist.

[Potemkin]

:lol:

Now you are talking like a Capitalist.

Why specifically a capitalist? What is remarkable throughout human history is the fact that the overwhelming majority of people willingly submit to established authority, even to the extent of allowing themselves to be sent to their almost certain death in war, for no significant personal gain. This was true in the ancient world, in feudal Europe, in absolutist-bureaucratic China, in capitalist Europe, in the Soviet Union.... everywhere, and at all times.

[annatar1914]

Why specifically a capitalist? What is remarkable throughout human history is the fact that the overwhelming majority of people willingly submit to established authority, even to the extent of allowing themselves to be sent to their almost certain death in war, for no significant personal gain. This was true in the ancient world, in feudal Europe, in absolutist-bureaucratic China, in capitalist Europe, in the Soviet Union.... everywhere, and at all times.

This I think is because the People have better political instincts than the majority of their political ''betters'', and will submit to Authority because civil wars are the worst of evils that can happen to a society. This is also why paradoxically Revolutions are Heaven-Sent but Rebellions and counter-revolutions are an absolute sin.

[B0ycey]

Why specifically a capitalist? What is remarkable throughout human history is the fact that the overwhelming majority of people willingly submit to established authority, even to the extent of allowing themselves to be sent to their almost certain death in war, for no significant personal gain. This was true in the ancient world, in feudal Europe, in absolutist-bureaucratic China, in capitalist Europe, in the Soviet Union.... everywhere, and at all times.

Only a Capitalist would stick to the status quo.

How do you explain revolution under a submissiveness to authority? Although if you are talking about duty that is morality which I have already said I don't believe is biological but cultural. That is why you see it in different cultures.

Nonetheless it is human instinct to survive. If society dictates human behaviour to conform then instinct can be harboured and morality learnt. But that isn't to say that is how they would behave under every environment. And as such morality isn't fixed.

[SolarCross]

Why specifically a capitalist? What is remarkable throughout human history is the fact that the overwhelming majority of people willingly submit to established authority, even to the extent of allowing themselves to be sent to their almost certain death in war, for no significant personal gain. This was true in the ancient world, in feudal Europe, in absolutist-bureaucratic China, in capitalist Europe, in the Soviet Union.... everywhere, and at all times.

Most wars in history did not result in certain death for the combatants, WW1 was not particularly typical as it happens. Most soldiers get paid and if they are not getting paid they usually desert. They usually have a genetic investment back home as well in the form of children that they believe they are protecting. Or elsewise they believe (often correctly) the soldier's life will afford them opportunities to create genetic investments along the way...

If humans were lemmings the USSR would not have needed barrier troops...

[annatar1914]

Most wars in history did not result in certain death for the combatants,

It is certain death for some combatants.

WW1 was not particularly typical as it happens. Most soldiers get paid and if they are not getting paid they usually desert.

Mutiny is also an option.

They usually have a genetic investment back home as well in the form of children that they believe they are protecting. Or elsewise they believe the soldier's life (often correctly) will afford them opportunities to create genetic investments along the way...

If humans were lemmings the USSR would not have needed barrier troops...

@Potemkin , it always seems to come back to the Great Patriotic War with these people, doesn't it? It was indeed a World-Historical Event to be sure.