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By ness31
#15101567
Can someone explain the mirroring that frequently occurs between America and China?

For instance, “The American Dream” has its counterpart , “The Chinese Dream”. “Make America Great Again” is mirrored with “the great rejuvenation”.

I’m sure there are many more examples. If you know any, please cite them.

But what explains this phenomena, and has it happened before in history?

And lastly, what part, of any, does North Korea play in the mirroring?

I hope that makes sense :hmm:
#15101595
ness31 wrote:Can someone explain the mirroring that frequently occurs between America and China?

For instance, “The American Dream” has its counterpart , “The Chinese Dream”. “Make America Great Again” is mirrored with “the great rejuvenation”.

I’m sure there are many more examples. If you know any, please cite them.

But what explains this phenomena, and has it happened before in history?

And lastly, what part, of any, does North Korea play in the mirroring?

I hope that makes sense :hmm:


I don't know if there is this mirroring you are talking about, and even if there is, the corresponding terms probably mean something different in both cultures.

What there is is an obsession of catching up with the US that's plagued Chinese thinking for at least 40 years if not more. Development goals are often formulated in terms of how many years it'll take for China to overtake the US.

The Chinese have always seen themselves as a race of culture inhabiting the middle kingdom superior to the "barbarians" of the North, South, East and West. The trauma of having been humiliated by the colonial powers still lingers, but to Chinese nationalists it was always only a matter of time before the Chinese race would once again take its rightful place and the center of the world all other people would be guided by. After all, two centuries of Western domination isn't much at the scale of the Chinese history which dates back to more than 3,000 years.

So, on its mission to the top it is only natural for the Chinese to measure success in relation to the current top dog.

I don't see how NK could figure in this.
#15101602
I don't know if there is this mirroring you are talking about, and even if there is, the corresponding terms probably mean something different in both cultures.


I don’t know if it formally exists either :) If it does, I imagine it’s going to be explained by something like quantum mechanics or some other hard science that I’m not clever enough to grasp and explain. That’s why I was hoping my smarter internet friends could help :)

What there is is an obsession of catching up with the US that's plagued Chinese thinking for at least 40 years if not more. Development goals are often formulated in terms of how many years it'll take for China to overtake the US.

The Chinese have always seen themselves as a race of culture inhabiting the middle kingdom superior to the "barbarians" of the North, South, East and West. The trauma of having been humiliated by the colonial powers still lingers, but to Chinese nationalists it was always only a matter of time before the Chinese race would once again take its rightful place and the center of the world all other people would be guided by. After all, two centuries of Western domination isn't much at the scale of the Chinese history which dates back to more than 3,000 years.

So, on its mission to the top it is only natural for the Chinese to measure success in relation to the current top dog.


An obsession of catching up to the US. Humiliation by colonial powers. Mimicry, fraud, China the great imitator...Yes. I know the narrative well :)

I don't see how NK could figure in this.


Yeah, its got me stumped too. It’s the 3rd wheel in this trigonometry equation that I just can’t pin down.

Anyway, when I spot more parallels I’ll post them.
#15101670
ness31 wrote:An obsession of catching up to the US. Humiliation by colonial powers. Yes. ... I know the narrative well :)


So, where is the problem? Doesn't it fully explain the phenomenon you seem to have discovered?

Mimicry, fraud, China the great imitator...


I don't see what this has to do with it. This is a Western ethnocentric judgement that fails to appreciate the reality of China.
#15101720
So, where is the problem? Doesn't it fully explain the phenomenon you seem to have discovered?


No, it doesn’t actually :hmm:

I come terribly unprepared to my own thread with not enough examples of try and explain myself. I will try harder.

I don't see what this has to do with it. This is a Western ethnocentric judgement that fails to appreciate the reality of China.


Well, mimicry, imitation and fraud are all short cuts to achieving that ‘catch up‘ to which you refer, so they do nestle in well to the narrative.

Edited to add - At this point I can only agree that this is ‘ethnocentric judgement that fails to appreciate the reality of China’.

I guess my next question would have to be then, (and it’s going to sound completely absurd, I know) - but do the Chinese have a ‘linear‘ view of time? :hmm:
#15101809
ness31 wrote:Well, mimicry, imitation and fraud are all short cuts to achieving that ‘catch up‘ to which you refer, so they do nestle in well to the narrative.


Did you defraud your teacher when you listened to his lectures?

To learn from a good example is something natural any intelligent person would want to do. Confucian learning is all about copying the masters that preceded us. There is nothing shameful about that. You become as skillful as your master by following his instructions, and if you have it in you, you may one day surpass him.

All that talk about mimicry, imitation and fraud is a polemic deformation that's beside the point.

do the Chinese have a ‘linear‘ view of time? :hmm:


The Chinese are a down-to-earth people that's not very keen on abstract speculations. Is time linear of cyclic? It depends. The practical Chinese mind will recognize that it is cyclic in how the cycle of seasons repeats itself without end. It will also recognize that it is linear in the how the ancestors recede into the past to be deified as in the legendary Huang Di. Thus, it can be both depending on concrete circumstances. To the practical mind, the need for an abstract absolute truth that's always valid doesn't make sense.
#15101823
Atlantis wrote:I don't see what this has to do with it. This is a Western ethnocentric judgement that fails to appreciate the reality of China.


At the same time, China fails to "appreciate" many of its citizens (including members of the ruling party) are actually in awe of the Western System, and find (not just think) it superior than whatever system they are offering or trying to impose.

In fact, imitation is a mindset that is doomed to failure (see Japan, even though they are master imitators). They have to offer something good and new, and unfortunately the Chinese philosophy is not really good at that.
#15101824
Did you defraud your teacher when you listened to his lectures?

To learn from a good example is something natural any intelligent person would want to do. Confucian learning is all about copying the masters that preceded us. There is nothing shameful about that. You become as skillful as your master by following his instructions, and if you have it in you, you may one day surpass him.

All that talk about mimicry, imitation and fraud is a polemic deformation that's beside the point.


I didn’t frame the narrative of the Chinese mimic and imitator. I simply pointed out that it feeds into the story of them having to ‘catch up’ to the West.

So what has the West ‘taught’ China? And conversely, what has the West learned from China? I suspect that if we were honest, we’d notice there wasn’t a lot of catching up to be done. Not in their time frame anyway :)

The Chinese are a down-to-earth people that's not very keen on abstract speculations. Is time linear of cyclic? It depends. The practical Chinese mind will recognize that it is cyclic in how the cycle of seasons repeats itself without end. It will also recognize that it is linear in the how the ancestors recede into the past to be deified as in the legendary Huang Di. Thus, it can be both depending on concrete circumstances. To the practical mind, the need for an abstract absolute truth that's always valid doesn't make sense.


There’s nothing particularly abstract about cyclic or linear perceptions of time. In fact, they do a poor job of explaining anything of consequence, except that of a very shallow existence.

Not being Chinese myself, I don’t know if culturally, they have another understanding of time that is shaping how we all view the world, especially through the news cycle.

Now, being the Agora, it’s only natural that I’m scratching my head wondering wtf I’m going on about and why I started this stupid thread to begin with.

Thanks for indulging my whims Atlantis
#15101908
ness31 wrote:I didn’t frame the narrative of the Chinese mimic and imitator. I simply pointed out that it feeds into the story of them having to ‘catch up’ to the West.


No it doesn't. Catching up with the West has been a real factor driving Chinese development for more than a century. Since the war that has been mostly reduced to catching up with the US since the US is perceived as the top dog. As a good student you follow a first class master and not a second rate master. Since the US rose to the position of top hegemony following WWII, they have measured their own development by that of the US. That's been a thing even before Deng Xiaoping, but it's almost like an official government goal since.

The image of dishonest copy-cat Asians, on the other hand, is a Western distortion of reality. It completely ignores the reality of intellectual property. The patent system requires that inventions are published after filing so that others may copy the invention and improve on it. That is how technological progress has been promoted. In fact, the Chinese today file more patents than anybody else. To say they don't respect intellectual property is nonsense.

Thus, the dilemma for the West is not that the Chinese copy invention. That everybody can do. The problem is that they are capable of improving on said inventions. That puts the Western lead into question.

There’s nothing particularly abstract about cyclic or linear perceptions of time.


That there is the concept of universal natural law is an abstraction. Why should time be linear or cyclic? It can be either depending on circumstances.

The idea of universally valid natural laws has grown out of the Christian idea of the universal god. It is not at all an inevitable truth. In fact, quantum mechanics which since its inception has notable similarities to Eastern philosophy puts into question this idea of immutable universal laws.
#15101910
Patrickov wrote:At the same time, China fails to "appreciate" many of its citizens (including members of the ruling party) are actually in awe of the Western System, and find (not just think) it superior than whatever system they are offering or trying to impose.

In fact, imitation is a mindset that is doomed to failure (see Japan, even though they are master imitators). They have to offer something good and new, and unfortunately the Chinese philosophy is not really good at that.


We have this thread about "shaming whites" which I think is total nonsense. But if I'm to take you at your word, a thread about "shaming Asians" may be in order :lol:
#15102016
No it doesn't. Catching up with the West has been a real factor driving Chinese development for more than a century. Since the war that has been mostly reduced to catching up with the US since the US is perceived as the top dog. As a good student you follow a first class master and not a second rate master. Since the US rose to the position of top hegemony following WWII, they have measured their own development by that of the US. That's been a thing even before Deng Xiaoping, but it's almost like an official government goal since.

The image of dishonest copy-cat Asians, on the other hand, is a Western distortion of reality. It completely ignores the reality of intellectual property. The patent system requires that inventions are published after filing so that others may copy the invention and improve on it. That is how technological progress has been promoted. In fact, the Chinese today file more patents than anybody else. To say they don't respect intellectual property is nonsense.

Thus, the dilemma for the West is not that the Chinese copy invention. That everybody can do. The problem is that they are capable of improving on said inventions. That puts the Western lead into question.


I hope this doesn’t come across as dismissive, but, considering I’m not fluent in the language or well versed in an accurate history of China, I can only say that your position is the accepted narrative. No argument there.

Does that mean China wouldn’t have ‘developed’ or ‘progressed’ without the US as it’s forerunner? I find that a touch patronizing to the Chinese.

Winners write history apparently. So, now that the Chinese have well and truly ‘caught up’, not only do they have more control of their own destiny and more importantly, how they are perceived they could also openly wield that power to frame how others are perceived on a world stage.

I hope the West weren’t too rough with Chinas image, for it will surely make for some grim viewing. Turn on the idiot box and if you’re an American, tell me, how comfortable do you feel with what’s being projected on to you ;).


That there is the concept of universal natural law is an abstraction. Why should time be linear or cyclic? It can be either depending on circumstances.

The idea of universally valid natural laws has grown out of the Christian idea of the universal god. It is not at all an inevitable truth. In fact, quantum mechanics which since its inception has notable similarities to Eastern philosophy puts into question this idea of immutable universal laws.


Agreed :)
#15102055
Atlantis wrote:We have this thread about "shaming whites" which I think is total nonsense. But if I'm to take you at your word, a thread about "shaming Asians" may be in order :lol:


I am not going to engage in that shit.

1. It is true that I look quite down on Chinese (under CCP), South Asians, and some Southeast Asians; but I do hold respect for Koreans, Japanese, and Chinese who realise, admit or accept that there are better system than the Chinese one, like Taiwanese and Hongkongers. However, I am not interested in detailing on how good or bad some people are, unless those points are useful on a topic I am keen to debate.

2. Frequent repetition of the same political / ideological statement and spreading of news of one theme is essentially propaganda.
#15102255
ness31 wrote:Does that mean China wouldn’t have ‘developed’ or ‘progressed’ without the US as it’s forerunner? I find that a touch patronizing to the Chinese.


There is nothing shameful about learning from others. On the contrary, people that are incapable of learning from others will be retarded in their development and risk ending up in the dustbins of history.

When the Japanese decided to open the country following the Meiji Restoration in the 19th century, they sent delegations to Europe to learn from the West. They sent a delegation to Germany to study medicine because they thought Germany was the most advanced in medicine. They sent a delegation to France to study law because they thought France was the most advanced in law ... By systematically studying Western affairs, they managed to reform their country and turn it from a backward medieval feudal country into a modern industrial state that was capable of competing with the colonial powers within a few decades. Without the Meiji Restoration, Japan would have been colonized by Western powers.

When the Jesuits first arrived in China in the 16th century, they offered the Chinese the fruits of European science and technology on a silver platter to curry favour with the emperor. However, Chinese nationalists were so full of themselves that they failed to appreciate the importance of Western science. The Jesuits went so far as to build and operate cannon foundries and translate European manuals of cannon building and gunnery into Chinese. Chinese leaders used these gifts to gain victory over rivals in internal disputes, but being convinced of the Chinese superiority, they didn’t develop Western sciences.

When the British sent a few thousand soldiers all around the globe in the 19th century to confront the biggest empire on Earth, they bombarded Canton and marched up to Beijing to destroy the Emperor’s Summer Palace. Even with a huge army, the Chinese didn’t stand a chance because they were still using the old cannons build by the Jesuits 3 centuries before. Needless to say, in Europe, guns had been improved in intervening time.

Thus, from the arrival of the Jesuits to the modernisation of Deng Xioaping, the Chinese lost almost 5 centuries and suffered humiliation by the colonial powers which forced them to sign the unequal treaties and open the country to the British opium trade, all because they were incapable of learning from others due to a sense of cultural superiority.
#15102446
Atlantis wrote:There is nothing shameful about learning from others. On the contrary, people that are incapable of learning from others will be retarded in their development and risk ending up in the dustbins of history.

When the Japanese decided to open the country following the Meiji Restoration in the 19th century, they sent delegations to Europe to learn from the West. They sent a delegation to Germany to study medicine because they thought Germany was the most advanced in medicine. They sent a delegation to France to study law because they thought France was the most advanced in law ... By systematically studying Western affairs, they managed to reform their country and turn it from a backward medieval feudal country into a modern industrial state that was capable of competing with the colonial powers within a few decades. Without the Meiji Restoration, Japan would have been colonized by Western powers.

When the Jesuits first arrived in China in the 16th century, they offered the Chinese the fruits of European science and technology on a silver platter to curry favour with the emperor. However, Chinese nationalists were so full of themselves that they failed to appreciate the importance of Western science. The Jesuits went so far as to build and operate cannon foundries and translate European manuals of cannon building and gunnery into Chinese. Chinese leaders used these gifts to gain victory over rivals in internal disputes, but being convinced of the Chinese superiority, they didn’t develop Western sciences.

When the British sent a few thousand soldiers all around the globe in the 19th century to confront the biggest empire on Earth, they bombarded Canton and marched up to Beijing to destroy the Emperor’s Summer Palace. Even with a huge army, the Chinese didn’t stand a chance because they were still using the old cannons build by the Jesuits 3 centuries before. Needless to say, in Europe, guns had been improved in intervening time.

Thus, from the arrival of the Jesuits to the modernisation of Deng Xioaping, the Chinese lost almost 5 centuries and suffered humiliation by the colonial powers which forced them to sign the unequal treaties and open the country to the British opium trade, all because they were incapable of learning from others due to a sense of cultural superiority.


Wow. There’s a lot for me to un-package in this post, and it’s a great post btw.

And this is what I’m getting from it -

In order for the Eastern cultures to stop Westerners from colonizing them they have learned to study the ‘enemy’ better, understand (some could even say infiltrate) their systems, and therefore retain their uniquely Eastern identity.

Yep. I’d say that’s spot on.

We pretty much believe the same thing Atlantis. It’s the motivations we disagree on.

I don’t think Eastern cultures think there is anything superior about Western ways - from it’s medicine to science to its social systems. They have harnessed the fascia of all things Western to treat what are ‘Western’ problems with Western ways.
#15102461
When the British sent a few thousand soldiers all around the globe in the 19th century to confront the biggest empire on Earth, they bombarded Canton and marched up to Beijing to destroy the Emperor’s Summer Palace. Even with a huge army, the Chinese didn’t stand a chance because they were still using the old cannons build by the Jesuits 3 centuries before. Needless to say, in Europe, guns had been improved in intervening time.

Thus, from the arrival of the Jesuits to the modernisation of Deng Xioaping, the Chinese lost almost 5 centuries and suffered humiliation by the colonial powers which forced them to sign the unequal treaties and open the country to the British opium trade, all because they were incapable of learning from others due to a sense of cultural superiority.


Image

China was totally humiliated by Britain but Britain was a Japanese ally in the pre-war era, which was envied by the United States that prevented the renewal of the treaty in 1923. The United States and the Dominions were hostile to Japan. The Anglo-Japanese Alliance (1902–23) epitomizes the good relationship between Britain and Japan, which obligated them to assist one another in safeguarding their respective interests in China and Korea. The Japanese Navy was initially entirely built by Britain, assisting its ally's military build-up in the Far East, and warships that battled the Russo-Japanese War were sent directly from Britain. The British Empire could only keep its Asian possessions by cooperating with Japan as it did not have enough manpower to police the Far East. The fall of Singapore was a natural consequence of the termination of the treaty. Winston Churchill described the fall of Singapore as “the worst disaster and largest capitulation in British history.”
#15102515
ness31 wrote:I don’t think Eastern cultures think there is anything superior about Western ways - from it’s medicine to science to its social systems. They have harnessed the fascia of all things Western to treat what are ‘Western’ problems with Western ways.


It's not really about who we think is or is not superior. When your cannons have a reach of 50 meters while the cannons on the other side have a reach of 100 meters, the outcome is predictable even if you feel very superior.

Superiority always implies a value judgement, yet the objective facts of technological advances make havoc of our subjective feeling of superiority.

The Chinese were undoubtedly more advanced than Europeans during the Tang and Song dynasties. Even by the 16th century, there were more books published in China than in the rest of the world put together. The question is why they fell back in relation to Europe or why Europe advanced during the European Renaissance. In Sinology, it's called the Needham Question. Needham was a British sinologist who, together with collaborators, compiled a massive multi-volume work on Chinese Science and Civilisation. His question has been variously answered. I think there are multiple factors, but the two most important are:

1) The monolithic structure of totalitarian China suppressed innovation, while the competition between numerous small political entities in Europe promoted innovation.

2) The two foreign ruled dynasties Yuan and Qing during which the Mongols and Manchus respectively ruled China as a foreign ruling class suppressed cultural advancement since the foreign rulers were more interested in maintaining their hold on power than in the advancement of Chinese culture.

When I studies Chinese more than 40 years ago, most of us thought that the CCP would not be able to modernize the country without modernizing the political system. We have been proven wrong. China, by learning from the West, has made enormous advances in the last 30 years in developing technology, while at the same time, rejecting all development in the political field. But I suspect the last word hasn't been said about this because the totalitarian rule by the CCP is inherently corrupt. Without freedom of press and checks and balances, it cannot be any other way. We'll see what happens when China has to become an innovation leader instead of just follow the West.

When Chinese scholars started to realize the superiority of Western science in the 19th century, they, as a face saving measure, created a dichotomy in which they admitted that the West was superior in natural science but that the Chinese were superior because of their human sciences (Confucianism), and that it was the latter that mattered.

After having first banned Confucius, the CCP has now revived Confucianism because they realize that Communist ethics wasn't sufficient to rule the country. However, I don't believe that anybody could claim that even neo-Confucianism provides a valid basis for ruling a modern state. The Chinese elite will sooner or later question why the Chinese have to be deprived of democracy and human rights.

Rather than the question of cultural superiority, the question of which system is better suited to deal with the problems of the future is of greater interest. We cherish our individual rights, but aren’t Asian collective-style societies more suited to deal with future problems? The answer isn’t that simple because Asian societies are just as greedy for material possessions as Western consumerist society.

The pandemic confirms both of the ideas I posited above: 1) the inherent corruption of CCP rule will always lead to problems like the cover-up 2) the Chinese system, which puts the interest of the collective above individual rights, is better at dealing with exceptional situations swiftly. But which will be better in the end .... :?:

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