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By froggo
#15174750
Considering the likelihood of there being planets out there with civilizations, some more advanced then others, I have been wondering lately whether or not belief in deities is a necessary transitional phase that all life-forms must go through, or is it possible that an alien culture could form without ever having to go through the same social developments that humans are going through?
Are our beliefs based on our social mechanisms the only path towards achieving higher civilization, or is it possible that completely ...ahem... alien cultures could organize and progress that would baffle our own interpretations of reality?
Could there be civilizations that never held the concept of god, or money, or power, or any of the primary ideological archetypes underlying our cultures? Or do you believe that their social histories would have been at some point similar to ours?
#15174761
froggo wrote:Considering the likelihood of there being planets out there with civilizations, some more advanced then others, I have been wondering lately whether or not belief in deities is a necessary transitional phase that all life-forms must go through, or is it possible that an alien culture could form without ever having to go through the same social developments that humans are going through?
Are our beliefs based on our social mechanisms the only path towards achieving higher civilization, or is it possible that completely ...ahem... alien cultures could organize and progress that would baffle our own interpretations of reality?
Could there be civilizations that never held the concept of god, or money, or power, or any of the primary ideological archetypes underlying our cultures? Or do you believe that their social histories would have been at some point similar to ours?


Interesting question. Obviously, nobody has the variables to make an educated "guess" the likelihood of "technological alien civilization" and/or how often religion would sprout. So whatever you get in response is merely speculation.
However, for the sake of argument lets say that both are fairly common, technological life is common, and religion is common. This poses a problem when/if we were to get into contact with these other civilizations as they are very unlikely to share the same religions as humans do.
However, lets say that a civilization shows up claiming that they are muslims... How would humanity respond? Would Christians convert to Islam at once because now all of the sudden there is a (presumably) more advanced civilization claiming to be muslim and thus we "erroneously" give more credibility to said religion? Or... perhaps devout Christians continue to believe in Christianity under the excuse of "this is a test" kind of attitude. Is it possible that aliens would continue to perpetuate our myths/beliefs for the sake of stability/peace and/or to subjugate us in any way? (I am not a believer of the "use them as a slave", the reality is that any species capable of coming to our planet would have perfected robotics/automation/AI to capabilities far exceeding what a human "slave" could even dream to accomplishing).

Then... what happens if aliens come up and they have a completely new religion, nothing similar to anything that have been proposed on earth? Would humanity simply abandon all their religions and "convert" to this new religion? Would they abandon all religions altogether? Would both species abbandon their religions and/or end up with some sort of hybrid thing?

Then there is the issue of a high degree of incompatibility of certain key parts of certain religions. The whole mythology surrounding Jesus Christ for instance... ET is not likely to be a Jesus Christ worshiper, just saying.
#15174763
I wonder if humanity will unite and start becoming more cooperative in spirit if they acknowledges alien life forms and that the UFOs all this time are real and there is life in another planet? Intelligent life and we are not alone?

I wonder how we would be? Where is everybody? Aliens....

#15174764
I believe that it is possible for civilizations to have formed that never held the same values that ours hold. The plausibility can be located by pinpointing where and how thoughts of deities formed and thinking of examples where such formations could have been prevented.
It seems as though a superstition surrounding provision is one of the core components of beliefs in gods; so that at some point the species was in hunger and imagined that their hunger would be attended to and suddenly they stumbled upon a gathering of animals or shrubs and began to frequently apply a hope in their mind with the increased possibility of provision, and everytime that circumstance arose it cemented their belief that when their mind requested something an outer force would provide.
When that force did not provide the person became dejected and began to perform rituals that would increase the need for provision. So where simply requesting provision before had worked, now one must perform an action along with the request, as at some point, that too yielded result. Eventually these results were determined to be factual and that it became a cultural necessity to continue on with these functionings.

Now, examples where these formations may not have been necessary could be manifold, one thing i could think of is a combination of plenitude and a species who (and here is where i get very speculative) had a neurology where telepathic communication was more pronounced, and one not only of transmission, but an 'intrusive' kind of telepathy. So that not only did they not have to rely on superstition to sustain themselves, but they could also better consider what their fellow-species members were doing. A telepathic potential for cohesion could prevent one from misinterpreting intention; so that when one sought to yield benefit over others, their self-aggrandizement did not have the added bonus of deception available to make their desire more effective. If this were the case, I can see societies formed where power and money were not as influential as they are in human society.

A species which had pronounced telepathic neurologies would be less likely to use religious dogma as a mechanism of control because it seems likely that they would be better suited towards group unity then they would division. So even if some members were prone to belief in deity, as soon as those beliefs sought to take hold over group cohesion, they would be chided and re-centralized.



XogGyux, you make a very interesting point to wonder about how we would respond to alien cultures. I sometimes suspect that if they were advanced enough to get here, they would somewhat look down on us as being "barbaric" and it might not suit their interests to engage with us, but i definitely agree, that if they do have religion, their figures would be completely different, even if some of their mythological stories are similar.

----
All in all though, as Fraser showed in The Golden Bough, that all throughout our earth when we were disconnected from one another, similar sentiments arose, so with that example, do we think its likely that similar societies like ours are more prone to arise on diverse planets, and a godless, powerless, whatever, society would rather be an anomaly than the norm?
#15174802
froggo wrote:I believe that it is possible for civilizations to have formed that never held the same values that ours hold. The plausibility can be located by pinpointing where and how thoughts of deities formed and thinking of examples where such formations could have been prevented.
It seems as though a superstition surrounding provision is one of the core components of beliefs in gods; so that at some point the species was in hunger and imagined that their hunger would be attended to and suddenly they stumbled upon a gathering of animals or shrubs and began to frequently apply a hope in their mind with the increased possibility of provision, and everytime that circumstance arose it cemented their belief that when their mind requested something an outer force would provide.
When that force did not provide the person became dejected and began to perform rituals that would increase the need for provision. So where simply requesting provision before had worked, now one must perform an action along with the request, as at some point, that too yielded result. Eventually these results were determined to be factual and that it became a cultural necessity to continue on with these functionings.

Now, examples where these formations may not have been necessary could be manifold, one thing i could think of is a combination of plenitude and a species who (and here is where i get very speculative) had a neurology where telepathic communication was more pronounced, and one not only of transmission, but an 'intrusive' kind of telepathy. So that not only did they not have to rely on superstition to sustain themselves, but they could also better consider what their fellow-species members were doing. A telepathic potential for cohesion could prevent one from misinterpreting intention; so that when one sought to yield benefit over others, their self-aggrandizement did not have the added bonus of deception available to make their desire more effective. If this were the case, I can see societies formed where power and money were not as influential as they are in human society.

A species which had pronounced telepathic neurologies would be less likely to use religious dogma as a mechanism of control because it seems likely that they would be better suited towards group unity then they would division. So even if some members were prone to belief in deity, as soon as those beliefs sought to take hold over group cohesion, they would be chided and re-centralized.



XogGyux, you make a very interesting point to wonder about how we would respond to alien cultures. I sometimes suspect that if they were advanced enough to get here, they would somewhat look down on us as being "barbaric" and it might not suit their interests to engage with us, but i definitely agree, that if they do have religion, their figures would be completely different, even if some of their mythological stories are similar.

----
All in all though, as Fraser showed in The Golden Bough, that all throughout our earth when we were disconnected from one another, similar sentiments arose, so with that example, do we think its likely that similar societies like ours are more prone to arise on diverse planets, and a godless, powerless, whatever, society would rather be an anomaly than the norm?

Humans are genetically very similar to each other (probably as a result of a population bottleneck <100,000 years ago). It is therefore hardly surprising that humans think and behave similarly, even in geographically isolated populations. Aliens are more likely to be, well, alien.

And even believing in animistic 'religion' requires a high degree of mental abstraction. Even the higher mammals seem to be incapable of it. Unless the aliens have at least a human level of cognitive development, then I think it's unlikely that they would have even crude animist beliefs about the world around them.
#15174882
@XogGyux Orthodox Christians should not have dilemma because as could be seen from the next thread on the OC.net eForum at least Russian Orthodox Church has firm stance what understands when aliens are in question!

http://forums.orthodoxchristianity.net/threads/oc-view-on-aliens-i-e-angels-as-aliens.79080/

next, if one anglican Priest is represent of the Protestants then this next info in the next footnote is their stance [1] while Catholics are ambivalent as I can understand from the next papal comment [2]

~

@froggo the most wrong thing is to guess that all what we suppose is true is tue, simply till we dont start traveling from galaxy to galaxy with ease till then we cant be sure whether those planets are just mirrored echo from another dimensions, the reality is that we dont know many things about the cosmos and somology if we know that fundamentally wrong is postulated the particle physics what I am suggesting in the next two footnotes [3][3] so now with assurance I can say we now know that we know nothing at least publicly or the same is not disclosed maybe eg. that our reality is hologram designed for/as second chance for our Souls, si that all the vieable sky that we suppose as material is also inhabited with other souls cant say with certainty or better said not sure whether and what kind of Souls exist there ... here is not so older interesting scientific notion what this would mean ... the title of the video is "Scientists Confirm That Reality is an Illusion - Our 3D Universe Is A Hologram" the problem with it is that as theory is derived suppose from quantum physics which by all means if SM theory is wrong then the same as quantum mechanics dont have ground ...


https://www.youtu.be/YGAo5uLCPio
#15174901
froggo wrote:I believe that it is possible for civilizations to have formed that never held the same values that ours hold. The plausibility can be located by pinpointing where and how thoughts of deities formed and thinking of examples where such formations could have been prevented.

Well, most certainly if there is another "technological" civilization in the universe almost certainly does not share the exact same values. There are a few that we might infer they will possess, likewise there are another handful that we might infer they do not possess. Religion itself is a bit trickier because we have a sample of one, a single technological species. Does that mean that all tech-species will go through it like we did? Or perhaps we are rather rare in this sense and they will show up and look at us in a weird way. Who knows.

XogGyux, you make a very interesting point to wonder about how we would respond to alien cultures. I sometimes suspect that if they were advanced enough to get here, they would somewhat look down on us as being "barbaric" and it might not suit their interests to engage with us, but i definitely agree, that if they do have religion, their figures would be completely different, even if some of their mythological stories are similar.

Barbaric is a relative term. I am more worried about our own views to them than vice versa to be honest. What would we do if it is part of their culture to eat a portion of their own brood/children? Or if "rape" is the "normal" way they reproduce?

Odiseizam wrote:@XogGyux Orthodox Christians should not have dilemma because as could be seen from the next thread on the OC.net eForum at least Russian Orthodox Church has firm stance what understands when aliens are in question!

http://forums.orthodoxchristianity.net/threads/oc-view-on-aliens-i-e-angels-as-aliens.79080/

next, if one anglican Priest is represent of the Protestants then this next info in the next footnote is their stance [1] while Catholics are ambivalent as I can understand from the next papal comment [2]

~

@froggo the most wrong thing is to guess that all what we suppose is true is tue, simply till we dont start traveling from galaxy to galaxy with ease till then we cant be sure whether those planets are just mirrored echo from another dimensions, the reality is that we dont know many things about the cosmos and somology if we know that fundamentally wrong is postulated the particle physics what I am suggesting in the next two footnotes [3][3] so now with assurance I can say we now know that we know nothing at least publicly or the same is not disclosed maybe eg. that our reality is hologram designed for/as second chance for our Souls, si that all the vieable sky that we suppose as material is also inhabited with other souls cant say with certainty or better said not sure whether and what kind of Souls exist there ... here is not so older interesting scientific notion what this would mean ... the title of the video is "Scientists Confirm That Reality is an Illusion - Our 3D Universe Is A Hologram" the problem with it is that as theory is derived suppose from quantum physics which by all means if SM theory is wrong then the same as quantum mechanics dont have ground ...


https://www.youtu.be/YGAo5uLCPio


I am sure they will come up with post-hoc rationalizations to make their views compatible. But what is going to be the excuse? Bibble forgot to mention little green naked guys running around with adam and eve? :lol:
When people are making shit up and "followers" are open to believing whatever nonsense you throw their ways, it is not hard to make the story fit. Take for instance the beginning of the Mormon church. There are many others like that in history as well.
#15174908
@XogGyux what to be compatible, You are projecting and talking from "materialistic perspective", but I pointed to You the same is not what the mainstream science suppose/ed! Christianity points to the Spiritual World and knows in what manner they are comming or can exercise their possessing, even neopagans as nazis learned the lection probably You've heard with whom communicated vril girls [1][1] if they (aliens) were from this plane why then they wouldnt lend the ufo tech to hitler but instead through visions nazis pushed their ufo program - see the proposed vril docus tagged in the first footnote! anyway what is less known is that Angels can materialize but only if for that have allowance and /or is opened door, yet I dont get why en'masse constantly people fall on sci'fi conditioning!? I know for the skeptical inexperienced mind in the spiritual realm any suggestion from this aspect would be ridiculous but if and when You will get in line all jokes sudently will evaporate ...
#15174913
Odiseizam wrote:@XogGyux what to be compatible, You are projecting and talking from "materialistic perspective", but I pointed to You the same is not what the mainstream science suppose/ed! Christianity points to the Spiritual World and knows in what manner they are comming or can exercise their possessing, even neopagans as nazis learned the lection probably You've heard with whom communicated vril girls [1][1] if they (aliens) were from this plane why then they wouldnt lend the ufo tech to hitler but instead through visions nazis pushed their ufo program - see the proposed vril docus tagged in the first footnote! anyway what is less known is that Angels can materialize but only if for that have allowance and /or is opened door, yet I dont get why en'masse constantly people fall on sci'fi conditioning!? I know for the skeptical inexperienced mind in the spiritual realm any suggestion from this aspect would be ridiculous but if and when You will get in line all jokes sudently will evaporate ...


:lol: Let's just say that if ET comes out of his flying soucer to proclaim that he/she/it has a religion and that religion is based on a 2k-year-old human guy that is the incarnation of the creator of the whole universe... that would be fishy as hell. But who knows, maybe god has not shown himself/herself because he/she is busy reincarnating into many multiple species across the universe as we speak :lol: .
#15174954
again You speculate on basis of sci'fi conditioning, either by astrophysics either by the entertainment industry, while I am claiming knowledge on the matter not just by personal metaphysical experience proven also by long human spiritual experience, and when and if we see aliens before the end of times and The Judgement Day that will be simply coz our openness for evil and flirting with the demons-anathema-to-them, yep dont wonder with use of crispr splicing all kind of chimeras that can be promoted as talking beasts in this realm, and or eventually big spectacles will be achieved by mass hallucination for what we dont lack technology as humanity at this moment [1] the conspi theory about the bluebeam project comes to mind, coz as I said the doors between the worlds dimensions skies (who how please) are not so easily allowable to be opened, anyway seeing is believing but by all means is better to seek Higher Realm Freedom than in this one submission to some aliens usually nested in elites in this world!

    I liked Orville series tho, as a matter of fact every crucial sci'fi series were part of my life, simply as ex-pagan that was lust that even nowadays in particular boring moments know to fire back coz my eventual laziness for feat and true focus on the true other worlds ...

... be rational and chose Salvation than damnation, as I said jokes will not help You on this path resting your will on mocking that skepticism, and if You decide to question things I'll suggest start reading the sayings from the Early Church Fathers, also as ex-pagan I'll say escape the trap of neopaganism and spear some time for real Freedom and Knowledge From Above ...
#15174955
Odiseizam wrote: while I am claiming knowledge on the matter


Sure... Knowledge on the matter.
8) :lol:
I am also claiming knowledge on pixies and magic unicorns. My friend the leprechaun sends you greetings as well.

Odiseizam, have you taken your quetiapine today?

and when and if we see aliens before the end of times and The Judgement Day that will be simply coz our openness for evil and flirting with the demons-anathema-to-them, yep dont wonder with use of crispr splicing all kind of chimeras

This could get you admitted to an institution.

I am having a hard time trying to find out if you are a troll or a batshit crazy guy. Remember, always carry your tinfoil hat or they will listen to your thoughts.
#15174958
This could get you admitted to an institution.


To be fair, there are a lot of beliefs, such as Native American traditions of Vision Quests and certain ceremonies, like burning fungi to expel evil presences, that would get you institutionalized-- in fact, its recommended not to mention God at all to certain psychiatrists-- but it does not negate the truth for those particular cultures. I often wonder myself if schizoid episodes serve a purpose beyond what our modern culture could accept. It is well known that most visionaries of the past probably had schizoid tendencies (messages from God) and those kinds of convictions in a well-spoken man are dangerous to the powers that be, so that the institutionalization of these characteristics, though in some cases helpful, in other cases prevents sowings of discord among the restrained populace. In essence, I don't entirely agree that everything 'institutional'-worthy necessary ought to have stigmas or negative perceptions attached to them.
I have a lot of theories about schizophrenia which are not relavent to this thread, but some great human endeavours have their roots in self-managed forms of schizoid tendencies, such as Jungian synchronicity, or the poetry of William Blake.
I for one, value Odiseizam's contributions to these forums, regardless if he is neurotypical or not, and regardless if i agree with everything he says or not. He certainly has some gemstones within his posts. Also, his comprehensive recall of a vast array of arcane esoterica is admirable in my eyes.


But, to be fair to you, Odiseizan is derailing this thread; because we are considering this from a brainwashed sci-fi stance unfortunately... because i am wondering about the compendium of stars and galaxies that are percieved to exist, erroneously or otherwise, and whether the societies that could theoretically form on those planets would be similar or dissimilar to ours, because the answer to that question brings me a deeper understanding of how much importance I place on our historical roots.
#15174970
@froggo no I just gave my interpretation what are alines, so yes as Angels they do Believe in The Almighty Lord ...

here is another notion in the link of the next quote that even astronauts experienced them as such ... probably by XogGyux standards they should end up in some institution, yeah they were actually in Soviet Space Program the predecessor of Roscosmos ...

Odiseizam wrote:https://english.pravda.ru/society/118195-angels/

what actually would be doable in hologram where if we strive enough for particular reality we will get the same one way or another, aside the actual laws of the multiverse ...
#15174973
You are right, you answered the title of this thread "Do Aliens believe in God." and I will admit, the fault is my own, I selected that title as a provocation to inspire interest in the thread, however, if you read the OP you will see that I'm not so much concerned about whether aliens actually believe in God or not, I'm more interested in whether or not hypothetical societies, and by extension our society necessarily follow similar progressions of belief-systems or not.
#15174975
I imply the same by the principle of causality that for everything we see there must be Creator ... even more that this must be case in other dimensions levels worlds (who however wants to call them), yet cant say for sure whether humanoids beings exist elsewhere or not on this level and in what amount altho I'll not hesitate to say that if they exist they are aware also for The Our Almighty Lord altho maybe having other expressions but surely learning just like us how things functions as metaphysics ... think now is more broadly answered Your question , tho variations can still be thrown, eg. even if other humanoids exist here also to them will not be allowed easy colonization of this world, maybe humanoids no but angels yes just not sure how we can evoke angels and like that they to try to colonize us as was case before the Great Flood!?
By late
#15174985
That depends on the alien in question.

Just for giggles, let's use Star Trek as an example. I don't think Vulcans have a god, Klingons think they killed him, and Romulans are divided on the question.

While there is little doubt there are other intelligent races out there somewhere, communicating with them is currently impossible, making the matter moot...

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