[Potemkin]

Average poetry speaks the truth of people's lives but I find that they lack complexity. I read them like folk stories. They're interesting and warm but it wouldn't hurt to add some more depth to them. I do spoken word poetry as well, and when I do that I have to change my speech in order to communicate with the masses. But sometimes that can be frustrating for me as the kind of poetry that I am attracted the most to are the complex ones with rich layers.

Thank God, Millie, you're back! *sighs with relief*

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

Then I don't have to point out the obvious elitism of that paragraph? In my opinion, poetry/writing/etc should be a method of enjoyment that is accessible to the masses, a tool of education and immersion and learning, not a way to continue the exclusion of the common man from thought. You make an esoteric poem and you scare off even more people to the idea of literature.

[Ombrageux]

This is a little too postmodern for me. Although I think being an "organic intellectual" is an admirable aim, I don't know that it is possible, or what it really means in practice.

[Potemkin]

Ironically enough, by writing this poem Millie has demonstrated that she is definitely not a Gramscian organic intellectual.

[Oxymoron]

This Poem is the reverse of anything I ever tried, that is why I probably dont understand it.

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

I understand it well enough, these types of poems are a dime a dozen at any college campus, albeit not as well put together as this one is.

[Tainari88]

Strange but as a young girl I never liked poetry much. Only when I became older did I start to understand it. And after many years I find poetry that is well done conveys feelings, thoughts and images and even states of mind that narrative can't ever do quite as well.

There are a few poems that I can't read very often though I know them so well...by heart. Because they are intense. So intense that they make me lose control a bit and I can't really go back to normal feelings for quite a while.

That is being a magician. I think good music does the same thing. Does anyone remember a line from that movie "Immortal Beloved" with Gary Oldman and Isabella Rossellini about the biography of Ludwig Beethoven. His secretary dumped his musical career after supposedly reading the description of what good music does---I don't recall exactly the lines but I will paraphrase---Music is like hypnotism. You listen to a march and your mind goes to that time of marching, you listen to a requiem and a eulogy and you feel sorrow, you listen to some music that is written to evoke joy, and happiness, and desperation and you have to feel it and you have to BE there. It is like magic.

Good poetry is like that. It has the power to transport the reader to whichever state of mind with the accompanying feelings the poet wants to convey to the reader. All the master poets and musicians have that gift. The ability to capture and distill the whole wide, diverse aspects of human thoughts, feelings and life process in short and relatively intense bits.

Fascinating. I still can't read Miguel Hernandez' "Elegia". I just can't. It makes me relive just how difficult it is to lose someone loved more than life....more than one loves oneself....and the line of 'siento mas tu muerte que mi vida'.....gets to me every time I hear it. There are so many fine poets.

Cheesecake Marmalade what do you write? Fiction or poetry?

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

My connection to prose and poetry hasn't been as such in a long time. I've become so jaded by real life events that it's all just another trivial read to me, it's all just another beautiful work without any emotional connection. The pain, I don't remember that feeling anymore. I don't remember what I felt when I sat in my room and cried, when I would lie on my back and stare at my eyelids, when I would pace around and finally sit, with the comfort of a book in my hand and some esoteric artist or band in the background. Writing and reading has ceased being an emotion for me and has become a skill to be practiced, a job to be worked, and a means to be exploited.

I remember when I would write and dream of fame, and now I write and dream of mediocrity, of flimsy prestige, of a steady paycheck. It's disheartening, but I am no longer an unstable, despairing person with little at my disposal but the ideas ringing in my head, looping over and over again.

Cheesecake Marmalade what do you write? Fiction or poetry?

I'm at a transitional stage... I write mainly short stories and personal essays, though I used to mainly write spoken-word and arhythmic, non-rhyming poetry. Now I have been reading so much shakespeare and marlowe, as well as going through a Harvord book of classic poetry that I have written many metered, rhyming pieces (mostly in ABBA or AABB).

Do you write, perchance?

[Tainari88]

My connection to prose and poetry hasn't been as such in a long time. I've become so jaded by real life events that it's all just another trivial read to me, it's all just another beautiful work without any emotional connection. The pain, I don't remember that feeling anymore. I don't remember what I felt when I sat in my room and cried, when I would lie on my back and stare at my eyelids, when I would pace around and finally sit, with the comfort of a book in my hand and some esoteric artist or band in the background. Writing and reading has ceased being an emotion for me and has become a skill to be practiced, a job to be worked, and a means to be exploited.

I remember when I would write and dream of fame, and now I write and dream of mediocrity, of flimsy prestige, of a steady paycheck. It's disheartening, but I am no longer an unstable, despairing person with little at my disposal but the ideas ringing in my head, looping over and over again.

Have you ever read "La Peste" by Albert Camus? You sound like an existentialist. Strange but emotional connection is a beautiful thing. To me it is the anchor of life. I have a lot of friends who tell me they feel disconnected. You should not. Think about it. In fact, creative people are the ones I have met in my life that have the most sheer enthusiasm for their work. They never lose that creativity and endless new ideas and drive for a new combination of art. It is fresh and new all the time. My father never lost his love for the creative arts. He wrote short stories, plays and novels, and funny stories. He painted paintings. My sister loves poetry. She won first prize in poetry in college in both Spanish and English.

My mother never lost her love of music and drawing and doing her little projects. And she was a very creative cook too. I never really remember being bored at all at home Cheesecake Marmalade. My childhood passed in a series of passionate debates at home, painting, dancing, writing, reading, jokes, laughter, and activities...and such natural warmth and closeness Cheesecake Marmalade. My father would tell me so many stories about his life and his thoughts and feelings. And such natural affection and warmth.....I thought everyone felt like that in their families. That all daughters knew their fathers with that kind of absolute completeness....so much that even after they die.....they are in your head.....as much a part of you as your lungs and your heart and your involuntary functions.

But, I understand what you are saying. We all have felt that cruel loss of connection at some point in our lives. That is why good poetry and art should be able to bring it back. Don't you think so?

Cheesecake Marmalade don't write for fame or for a paycheck. Write for the love of making something new and unique and original out of YOU and what is inside of you that needs a vessel for expression. Life is short. We all die. Might as well spend your time making it true to your dreams and aspirations for yourself. Know thyself Cheesecake Marmalade.

I love to write. I just fear that if I truly give it all I got....I just might lose a little bit more of my deepest heart than I am willing to lose. I hope you understand me?

[millie_(A)TCK]

Ironically enough, by writing this poem Millie has demonstrated that she is definitely not a Gramscian organic intellectual.

That's debateable. Is it the intention of the piece or it's accessibility that makes it evident of someone who is not a Gramscian organic intellectual? The only thing imo that makes me not a gramscian organic intellectual is that I am not working class.

Then I don't have to point out the obvious elitism of that paragraph? In my opinion, poetry/writing/etc should be a method of enjoyment that is accessible to the masses, a tool of education and immersion and learning, not a way to continue the exclusion of the common man from thought. You make an esoteric poem and you scare off even more people to the idea of literature.

A lot of other artists like Bob Marley have said that they use simple words that even a baby could understand to reach out to more people. Its not being elitist to say you simplify your language sometimes to reach out to more people but sometimes you want to be complex. I agree that poetry and writing are at their best what you have said but I don't think that's all they are. If you're targeting a specific audience, it's not wrong to tailor it to their needs specifically and eschew being universal in understanding.

I understand it well enough, these types of poems are a dime a dozen at any college campus, albeit not as well put together as this one is.

Would you really have got it without my explaination? I am not sure if you're pretending to because you don't want to seem literary unware. I've taken University creative writing courses and no, my poem is not a prime example of the sort of poetry the average university English/Creative writing/Professional writing major writes. They deconstruct their poetry marginally and their content is rarely this political let alone political about the role of writers. I wrote this piece with those students in mind because I found their pieces so very dull and not pushing the margins enough.

[Xenonx]

yup.

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| - ||___   ___|hanks for that, I’ve started experimenting  | - |
| \ |    | | with some of my old askii art tricks. It looks | / |
| | |    | | like they almost work on here, just the larger | | |
| / |    | | mismatch between the vertical lines is a bit   | \ |
| - |    | | annoying, the fact I can’t change the colour   | - |
| \ |    |_| of the text or its size in a code tag also     | / |
| | | reduces what I can do.                                | | |
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[millie_(A)TCK]

Can you show some examples of great askii art because all that I've seen of it has been from youtube commentaries and myspace message boards. Its fun experimenting with different ways of structuring writing, so I'll also have a go at askii writing.

[Xenonx]

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| /:| __     __                                             |:\ |
|:- | \Y\   /Y/ou really have several types of askii art.   | -:|
| \:|  \Y\_/Y/ The first one is the really basic type that  |:/ |
|:| |   \YYY/  you have probably already seen in the various| |:|
| /:|    |Y| internet chats and message boards. The high art|:\ |
|:- |    |Y| in here would be something like the complicated| -:|
| \:| Japanese inspired slimies: d-_-b, @_@, <(o.0)> and so |:/ |
|:| | on. The western ones being so common I just count     | |:|
| /:| them as punctuations. You then have the askii line art|:\ |
|:- | like the capital letters I'm using, no solid fill     | -:|
| \:| inside the outlines that you've drawn. The next step  |:/ |
|:| | up is using fills with that look the same "colour" on | |:|
| /:| the page, the term being borrowed from typography, to |:\ |
|:- | distinguish the inside from the outside. I don't have | -:|
| \:| examples of this apart the capital Y that I used here.|:/ |
|:| | __          __                                        | |:|
| /:| \ \        / /here real askii art starts is when you  |:\ |
|:- |  \ \  /\  / / can use different "coloured" characters | -:|
| \:|   \ \/  \/ / to fill in the spaces inside the figures |:/ |
|:| |    \  /\  / and you either remove the outlines or     | |:|
| /:|     \/  \/ greatly deemphasise them. This is where    |:\ |
|:- | starts you can see a really great example at 1. You   | -:|
| \:| then have even more realistic art at what is called   |:/ |
|:| | ansi art, since you are no longer restricted to the   | |:|
| /:| 128 char set of askii you end up with some even more  |:\ |
|:- | amazing stuff like 2. Of course you can go even one   | -:|
| \:| step further and add actual colours to the mix and get|:/ |
|:| | something like 3 which is so far removed from text art| |:|
| /:| that for most intents and purposes I just consider it |:\ |
|:- | regular digital art. You also have a small subsectoion| -:|
| \:| as scroll art, which looks animated when you scroll   |:/ |
|:| | past in a browser window line by line. This is what   | |:|
| /:| the frames around this text are meant to do. If you go|:\ |
|:- | to deviant art you'll see it all there under text art.| -:|
| \:|   ____                                                |:/ |
|:| |  / __ \ne important thing I've forgot, and probably   | |:|
| /:| | |  | | the one you care most about: askii fonts.    |:\ |
|:- | | |  | | These are letters written as collections of  | -:|
| \:| | |__| | other letters. There are too many ways to do |:/ |
|:| |  \____/  this to list but you can see examples in 4&5.| |:|
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1. http://fc04.deviantart.com/images/i/200 ... _ASCII.jpg
2. http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs11/i/2006/ ... RASH0r.png
3. http://fc03.deviantart.com/fs5/i/2005/1 ... indude.jpg
4. http://www.network-science.de/ascii/
5. http://fc06.deviantart.com/fs10/f/2006/ ... T_ansi.gif

[Zyx]

I find puzzles to be stupid, so this 'poem' is sickeningly awful.

It's all the worse when these meaningless revolutionaries are highlighted as significant.

[millie_(A)TCK]

1. http://fc04.deviantart.com/images/i/200 ... _ASCII.jpg
2. http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs11/i/2006/ ... RASH0r.png
3. http://fc03.deviantart.com/fs5/i/2005/1 ... indude.jpg
4. http://www.network-science.de/ascii/
5. http://fc06.deviantart.com/fs10/f/2006/ ... T_ansi.gif

nice...

It's all the worse when these meaningless revolutionaries are highlighted as significant.

Shakespeare isn't significant?

[Xenonx]

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|:- | \ \        / /hat I would really find impressive is if| -:|       
| \:|  \ \  /\  / / someone could make a meaningful text    |:/ |       
|:| |   \ \/  \/ / into a piece of askii art. There are some| |:|       
| /:|    \  /\  / around but they are just random bits of   |:\ |       
|:- |     \/  \/ text happen to fit some simple shape. One  | -:|       
| \:| I've seen is:                                         |:/ |       
|:| | I                                                     | |:|       
| /:| do                                                    |:\ |       
|:- | not                                                   | -:|       
| \:| know                                                  |:/ |       
|:| | where                                                 | |:|       
| /:| family                                                |:\ |       
|:- | doctors                                               | -:|       
| \:| acquired                                              |:/ |       
|:| | illegibly                                             | |:|       
| /:| perplexing                                            |:\ |       
|:- | handwriting;                                          | -:|       
| \:| nevertheless,                                         |:/ |       
|:| | extraordinary                                         | |:|       
| /:| pharmaceutical                                        |:\ |       
|:- | intellectuality,                                      | -:|       
| \:| counterbalancing                                      |:/ |       
|:| | indecipherability,                                    | |:|       
| /:| transcendentalizes                                    |:\ |       
|:- | intercommunications'                                  | -:|       
| \:| incomprehensibleness.                                 |:/ |       
|:| | And even this is only a linearly increasing list of   | |:|
| /:| words without any variation in colour or shape. The   |:\ |       
|:- | mind that wrote that boggles mine. At any rate I would| -:|       
| \:| love to see what you come up with, if you manage some-|:/ |       
|:| | thing like the first link it would be most impressive.| |:|         
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[Wellsy]

That is being a magician. I think good music does the same thing. Does anyone remember a line from that movie "Immortal Beloved" with Gary Oldman and Isabella Rossellini about the biography of Ludwig Beethoven. His secretary dumped his musical career after supposedly reading the description of what good music does---I don't recall exactly the lines but I will paraphrase---Music is like hypnotism. You listen to a march and your mind goes to that time of marching, you listen to a requiem and a eulogy and you feel sorrow, you listen to some music that is written to evoke joy, and happiness, and desperation and you have to feel it and you have to BE there. It is like magic.

The association that came to my mind upon reading this was a conclusion to Lev Vygotsky's thoughts on Aesthetic Education, citing Tolstoy.
It seems to be expressing the point you are here.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1926/educational-psychology/ch13.htm

The psychological difference between the composer and audience of a musical composition, between Beethoven and each of us, was brilliantly defined by Tolstoy, when he pointed out the need for us to react to every impression, and emphasized the realness of art, an idea that is of the greatest importance for esthetic education.

“Of course, he who wrote at least the Kreutzer Sonata-Beethoven, that is of course, he knew why he found himself in such a state; this state led him to undertake certain actions, so that for him, this state possessed a meaning, whereas for us it has no meaning at all. This is why music only stimulates, but does not terminate. Thus, if there is a military march being played, the soldiers will march to the music, and the music will affect them; if there is dance music being played, I'll go dancing, and the music will affect me; and if mass is being sung, I'll receive communion, and the music will also affect me; but this is only stimulation, and there is nothing I have to do in response to this stimulation. This is why music is so frightful, why it sometimes has so frightful an effect.

“For example, even though it is the Kreutzer Sonata, could the first movement be played, let’s say, in a drawing room filled with young ladies in decollete? Suppose this movement is played, can I then tap someone on the shoulder, and then have some ice cream and talk the latest gossip? These pieces of music may be played only at certain important and significant social events and only when there are certain actions which have to be carried out and which are appropriate to this music. To play the music and to do what this music calls for, that is the point.”

[Presvias]

I love how you've taken other people's ideas and made them inaccessible.

It's the highest form of art really: empty snobbery.