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#14980127
Sivad wrote:Exactly, it's not a monolithic entity. The infighting is especially visible on issues like climate change. There's one faction of nationalist industrialists represented by people like the Kochs who oppose this new agenda because it threatens their little fiefdoms while the transnational banking and managerial elites are really pushing the agenda because it gives them greater control of the global economy which means greater geopolitical power for global governance.

You're catching on quickly, Sivad. ;)
User avatar
By Beren
#14980129
Potemkin wrote:Trump is a member of one faction of the Establishment, which is not the mainstream faction.

He's a member of the New York establishment namely, the notorious faction. It's like it was decided the next president will be from NYC, the only issue left was whether it will be a mainstream one or a multi-bankrupted soldier of fortune from the super-swampy real estate business (not to mention Trump's other "adventures"). It's revealing he could pose himself as the anti-swamp candidate while his presidency is just a higher level of swampness.
#14980135
Beren wrote:He's a member of the New York establishment namely, the notorious faction. It's like it was decided the next president will be from NYC, the only issue left was whether it will be a mainstream one or a multi-bankrupted soldier of fortune from the super-swampy real estate business (not to mention Trump's other "adventures"). It's revealing he could pose himself as the anti-swamp candidate while his presidency is just a higher level of swampness.

Indeed. The 'swampiness' of American political culture goes to the bone, and is a result of the historic American rejection of traditional European moral and social values and their embrace of the 'blank slate' theory of personal and national history. America, both as a nation and as a collection of individuals, has no history that means a damn thing. This 'liberates' them to be able to reinvent themselves from moment to moment, free of such pesky limitations as a personal history and a personal character which is revealed by that history. Trump is merely the purest and most unabashed example of such a history-free and character-free individualist. He is, in many respects, the ultimate American, the Nietzschean 'Last Man' of history. It also means that even when Americans try to "drain the swamp", the swamp just gets deeper and murkier. The American Dream is the Swamp, and the Swamp is the American Dream....

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By Beren
#14980137
Potemkin wrote:Indeed. The 'swampiness' of American political culture goes to the bone, and is a result of the historic American rejection of traditional European moral and social values and their embrace of the 'blank slate' theory of personal and national history. America, both as a nation and as a collection of individuals, has no history that means a damn thing. This 'liberates' them to be able to reinvent themselves from moment to moment, free of such pesky limitations as a personal history and a personal character which is revealed by that history. Trump is merely the purest and most unabashed example of such a history-free and character-free individualist. He is, in many respects, the ultimate American, the Nietzschean 'Last Man' of history. It also means that even when Americans try to "drain the swamp", the swamp just gets deeper and murkier. The American Dream is the Swamp, and the Swamp is the American Dream....

Image

I used "swampness" intentionally to indicate that it's a change in quality, not just quantity. Trump's swamp is not just swampier, it's another kind of swamp actually. An exclusive family swamp like the swamp of a republic is replaced with the swamp of a monarchy.
#14980146
Potemkin wrote:Indeed. The 'swampiness' of American political culture goes to the bone, and is a result of the historic American rejection of traditional European moral and social values and their embrace of the 'blank slate' theory of personal and national history. America, both as a nation and as a collection of individuals, has no history that means a damn thing. This 'liberates' them to be able to reinvent themselves from moment to moment, free of such pesky limitations as a personal history and a personal character which is revealed by that history. Trump is merely the purest and most unabashed example of such a history-free and character-free individualist. He is, in many respects, the ultimate American, the Nietzschean 'Last Man' of history. It also means that even when Americans try to "drain the swamp", the swamp just gets deeper and murkier. The American Dream is the Swamp, and the Swamp is the American Dream....

Image


There is no doubt the tendency is ingrained into the system, but to generalize that to Americans lacking character is incorrect, imo. It is more that we are stuck in a system most of us no longer agree with because it is in contradiction to our true character.
I think our character is based upon ‘an ethic of personal success’, but it is a ‘limited success.’ Running a successful furniture business in town is to be admired. Running Microsoft is only the ambition of very few. This is actually contrary to the character of most of us (I hope).
So, draining the swamp is a legitimate concern based upon American character, not a lack of character. It is extremely entrenched, and most have no idea how to dismantle it, but we are offended by it even as we are required to work to support it. We are ‘players on the stage’ but that doesn’t mean we are happy with our roles.
#14980153
One Degree wrote:There is no doubt the tendency is ingrained into the system, but to generalize that to Americans lacking character is incorrect, imo. It is more that we are stuck in a system most of us no longer agree with because it is in contradiction to our true character.
I think our character is based upon ‘an ethic of personal success’, but it is a ‘limited success.’ Running a successful furniture business in town is to be admired. Running Microsoft is only the ambition of very few. This is actually contrary to the character of most of us (I hope).
So, draining the swamp is a legitimate concern based upon American character, not a lack of character. It is extremely entrenched, and most have no idea how to dismantle it, but we are offended by it even as we are required to work to support it. We are ‘players on the stage’ but that doesn’t mean we are happy with our roles.

That's a good point. A large part of the anomie of American society is caused by the fact that huge numbers of Americans are unhappy with the way their nation and their society has turned out. But the truth is, you got what you wanted. You wanted, back in the 18th and 19th centuries, for America to be a nation unique among other nations, in that an individual's personal history wouldn't matter a damn in the 'new world' of America. Unfortunately, this also implied that their character wouldn't matter a damn either. After all, what else is a person's 'character' but their own personal history, which reveals to others how they are likely to behave in the future? The American Dream actually succeeded rather too well. Donald Trump is merely the herald of a new era, the Era of the Swamp. And he will take over the Swamp by proclaiming that he is 'draining' the Swamp, just as Augustus Caesar abolished the Roman Republic by proclaiming that he was 'restoring' the Republic.
#14980162
Potemkin wrote:That's a good point. A large part of the anomie of American society is caused by the fact that huge numbers of Americans are unhappy with the way their nation and their society has turned out. But the truth is, you got what you wanted. You wanted, back in the 18th and 19th centuries, for America to be a nation unique among other nations, in that an individual's personal history wouldn't matter a damn in the 'new world' of America. Unfortunately, this also implied that their character wouldn't matter a damn either. After all, what else is a person's 'character' but their own personal history, which reveals to others how they are likely to behave in the future? The American Dream actually succeeded rather too well. Donald Trump is merely the herald of a new era, the Era of the Swamp. And he will take over the Swamp by proclaiming that he is 'draining' the Swamp, just as Augustus Caesar abolished the Roman Republic by proclaiming that he was 'restoring' the Republic.


That's an interesting claim; how do you suppose Americans wanted to reinvent themselves via a blank slate and when did this happen?

What would America have looked like had it followed the European model.

I guess I don't understand what you are getting at?
#14980166
Godstud wrote:@blackjack21 I don't miss the point. You people are fucking morons thinking a "Fuck you" to anyone is going to improve your dumbass country.

Trump IS the fucking establishment! :knife:

:D :excited: :rockon:
Hillary would have been so awesome right?
#14980168
Victoribus Spolia wrote:That's an interesting claim; how do you suppose Americans wanted to reinvent themselves via a blank slate and when did this happen?

It seems to have happened from the 18th century onwards, and was reinforced by the successive waves of mass immigration and the expansion of the Frontier in the mid-19th century. America offered a golden opportunity for people from all over the world (but principally from Europe) to reinvent themselves. The immigrants came from places like Ireland, where they were oppressed and starved by their English masters, or from Scotland, where the local landowners had thrown the crofters off the land they farmed and replaced them with sheep, or from squalid Eastern European ghettos. America gave them the chance to forget who they were and where they came from, and to reinvent themselves as homesteaders or prosperous burghers. They seized that chance, but they ultimately paid a very high price for it - cultural and historical amnesia, and the idiocy which goes with such amnesia.

What would America have looked like had it followed the European model.

Rather like modern Europe? Lol. ;)

I guess I don't understand what you are getting at?

I'm trying to get at the root of the differences between American political culture and social attitudes and those of the rest of the world, especially Europe (which provided the cultural foundation for American society).
#14980178
Potemkin wrote:Augustus Caesar abolished the Roman Republic by proclaiming that he was 'restoring' the Republic.


the fall of the American Empire seems to be paralleling the fall of the Roman Empire with remarkable consistency. I love the simple observation that history repeats itself. Aside from the aberrations of Mother Nature and God, what is history? To my mind history is simply a reflection of and a result of human nature. Human nature essentially does not change. It seeks pleasure. A/the primary tool of seeking pleasure is simple greed. Greed is, essentially, mindless and self destructive. Empires have been rising and falling throughout history. Their last days are generally characterized by extremes of wealth distribution and the conditions of absurd wealth/pleasure of the few that feeds off of the pain and suffering of the many.

With the advent of humankind's ability to destroy itself quickly with the pushing of a few nuclear buttons, I speculate that the American Empire may well be the last empire. It is simply a matter of time before some idiot somewhere makes the fatal clerical error. In the meantime, jimjam recommends that you all eat, drink and be merry. and, oh, build a few walls if that makes you happy.

Have a happy day.
#14980183
Potemkin wrote:It seems to have happened from the 18th century onwards, and was reinforced by the successive waves of mass immigration and the expansion of the Frontier in the mid-19th century. America offered a golden opportunity for people from all over the world (but principally from Europe) to reinvent themselves. The immigrants came from places like Ireland, where they were oppressed and starved by their English masters, or from Scotland, where the local landowners had thrown the crofters off the land they farmed and replaced them with sheep, or from squalid Eastern European ghettos. America gave them the chance to forget who they were and where they came from, and to reinvent themselves as homesteaders or prosperous burghers. They seized that chance, but they ultimately paid a very high price for it - cultural and historical amnesia, and the idiocy which goes with such amnesia.



That's a very interesting theory; I guess where it runs aground for me is the claim that immigrants forgot their native culture, they clearly didn't; the food I eat in my family and the traditions we maintain are proof enough in my mind besides the tales of poverty long past.

But this doesn't seem to be what you are saying when your speak of historical amnesia, you seem to be speaking about class history?

What would you have suggested in this regards? That irish people maintain their status as oppressed in spite of the opportunity to do otherwise (contra Europe)?

America was indeed the land of opportunity, but mainly because of a lack of supervision and oversight by a state and its large open spaces and cheap land.

For some reason, this fact that Americans could go from impoverished polish immigrants to millionaires in your mind seems to imply a greater proclivity to cronyism and historical ignorance?

That seems a bridge too far in my opinion.

Potemkin wrote:Rather like modern Europe? Lol



Well if thats the case i'm glad we committed cultural-historical amnesia. Was this supposed to be an argument against doing such? :lol:

Potemkin wrote:I'm trying to get at the root of the differences between American political culture and social attitudes and those of the rest of the world, especially Europe (which provided the cultural foundation for American society).


Let me be your case-study. You can't get more American than an educated, patriarchal, theonomic, ancap with 6 kids and a homestead. :lol:
User avatar
By jimjam
#14980326
The partial government shutdown is inflicting far greater damage on the United States economy than previously estimated, the White House acknowledged on Tuesday, as President Trump’s economists doubled projections of how much economic growth is being lost each week the standoff with Democrats continues.

The revised estimates from the Council of Economic Advisers show that the shutdown, now in its fourth week, is beginning to have real economic consequences. The analysis, and other projections from outside the White House, suggests that the shutdown has already weighed significantly on growth and could ultimately push the United States economy into a contraction.

While Vice President Mike Pence ( :lol: ) previously played down the shutdown’s effects amid a “roaring” economy, White House officials are now cautioning Mr. Trump about the toll it could take on a sustained economic expansion. Mr. Trump, who has hitched his political success to the economy, also faces other economic headwinds, including slowing global growth, a trade war with China and the waning effects of a $1.5 trillion tax cut.
#14980334
jimjam wrote:The partial government shutdown is inflicting far greater damage on the United States economy than previously estimated, the White House acknowledged on Tuesday, as President Trump’s economists doubled projections of how much economic growth is being lost each week the standoff with Democrats continues.

The revised estimates from the Council of Economic Advisers show that the shutdown, now in its fourth week, is beginning to have real economic consequences. The analysis, and other projections from outside the White House, suggests that the shutdown has already weighed significantly on growth and could ultimately push the United States economy into a contraction.

While Vice President Mike Pence ( :lol: ) previously played down the shutdown’s effects amid a “roaring” economy, White House officials are now cautioning Mr. Trump about the toll it could take on a sustained economic expansion. Mr. Trump, who has hitched his political success to the economy, also faces other economic headwinds, including slowing global growth, a trade war with China and the waning effects of a $1.5 trillion tax cut.

You of little faith.
#14980380
jimjam wrote:The partial government shutdown is inflicting far greater damage on the United States economy than previously estimated, the White House acknowledged on Tuesday, as President Trump’s economists doubled projections of how much economic growth is being lost each week the standoff with Democrats continues.

The revised estimates from the Council of Economic Advisers show that the shutdown, now in its fourth week, is beginning to have real economic consequences. The analysis, and other projections from outside the White House, suggests that the shutdown has already weighed significantly on growth and could ultimately push the United States economy into a contraction.

While Vice President Mike Pence ( :lol: ) previously played down the shutdown’s effects amid a “roaring” economy, White House officials are now cautioning Mr. Trump about the toll it could take on a sustained economic expansion. Mr. Trump, who has hitched his political success to the economy, also faces other economic headwinds, including slowing global growth, a trade war with China and the waning effects of a $1.5 trillion tax cut.


Such ‘White House officials’ are idiots. The economy won’t help Trump if he caves in on this. My guess is these ‘officials’ are the gardener and the cook. :)
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By Rancid
#14983489
This looks like a side effect of the trade war:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/foxconn-looks-to-indiaand-beyond-chinafor-iphone-assembly-11548151273

Foxconn is looking to shift away from China a bit by investing in India and Vietnam. This was probably inevitable, but I would say the trade war probably accelerated this kind of decision making from Foxconn.
#14983496
Potemkin wrote:It seems to have happened from the 18th century onwards, and was reinforced by the successive waves of mass immigration and the expansion of the Frontier in the mid-19th century. America offered a golden opportunity for people from all over the world (but principally from Europe) to reinvent themselves. The immigrants came from places like Ireland, where they were oppressed and starved by their English masters, or from Scotland, where the local landowners had thrown the crofters off the land they farmed and replaced them with sheep, or from squalid Eastern European ghettos. America gave them the chance to forget who they were and where they came from, and to reinvent themselves as homesteaders or prosperous burghers. They seized that chance, but they ultimately paid a very high price for it - cultural and historical amnesia, and the idiocy which goes with such amnesia.


Rather like modern Europe? Lol. ;)


I'm trying to get at the root of the differences between American political culture and social attitudes and those of the rest of the world, especially Europe (which provided the cultural foundation for American society).


This is where an artificial ethnic identity takes root Potemkin. They (German, Irish, Scottish, etc.) immigrants no longer live in those lands, societies, etc. They are cut off from that. They do reinvent themselves and in order to do so they shake off their ethnic identities.

Let us look at an example (a typical arrival from Ellis Island from Germany), his ethnic name may be Johannes Kaiser, and he changes it to become more Anglo, "Mr. John King". He no longer speaks German in his home to his children and he deliberately forgets 'his native tongue' to fit in with the mainstream society he tries to emulate. In so doing? He adopts a culture that is far from homogenous and rooted in history. He adopts some nebulous Americana persona that has nothing to do with original regional German culture.

This becomes necessary to assimilate. This is different than acculturating Potemkin. Acculturation would be Johannes Kaiser continuing to speak German and learning English, choosing to speak German at home and maintain traditions and also to understand the Anglo paradigm presented as American culture. Even that is subject to loss in one or two generations without access to German culture and land.

With Mexicans that is totally different. They are neighbors, so they are there always refreshing the original culture because they are next door. The German guy can't go back to Germany or have German relatives coming over to stay months or years and socializing with his family. Too far, too inconvenient. Plus they have land that is very different from his roots. Mexicans? totally different circumstances. Enormous nation of about 130 million soon. And they have enormous amounts of Indian communities who still speak the original languages like Zapotec, Tarascan, Mixtec, Nahuatl, and many more. So? Their assimilation is a lot slower and always will be.

You see it in this state of Colorado. The original three languages the Colorado constitution was written in German, English and Spanish. German is a goners. No one speaks fluent German. Spanish? On the rise. English is the dominant one still. But Spanish on the rise? Why? Not because of the Chicanos in Colorado who have been here for centuries it is because the Mexicans and others are always coming here and arriving renewing that community with their economic activity, labor and so on. They live close by. Not so with Germany. It never will be that way with nations thousands upon thousands of miles away and with oceans dividing them. Plus? Germany, Scotland, England and Wales, are all not in a desperate financial situation like in the past that had to have poor desperate masses fleeing. That is gone. The only ones who are able and willing to come here and work hard for low wages are the ones to the South close by. Not the Europeans. Those who fail to understand this are foolish in the extreme.
#14983505
This ⬆️ is basically correct, but these European ethnic communities still exist in the US. Polish in Chicago, Scandinavian in Minnesota, and if you go to a grocery store in some small towns in Texas, you will hear German spoken too. One town I recall had all the streets named after famous Germans. So, not all have lost their identity entirely.
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By Rancid
#14983511
One Degree wrote:This ⬆️ is basically correct, but these European ethnic communities still exist in the US. Polish in Chicago, Scandinavian in Minnesota, and if you go to a grocery store in some small towns in Texas, you will hear German spoken too. One town I recall had all the streets named after famous Germans. So, not all have lost their identity entirely.


Fredericksberg or New Brunfels maybe? Those two towns are very German. People still speak Texas German there. Fredericksberg is considered the home of Texas German dialect.

Both towns tend to have a ton of festivities around Octoberfest.
#14983515
Rancid wrote:Fredericksberg or New Brunfels maybe? Those two towns are very German. People still speak Texas German there. Fredericksberg is considered the home of Texas German dialect.

Both towns tend to have a ton of festivities around Octoberfest.


I am not certain, but I have been to both of those. My brother took me to a lot of towns when I was there, and they kind of all blended together in memory.
#14983525
Same here. My German in laws moved over here eons ago, later my FIL's parents moved here too. Cousins and siblings come here, PIL travel back and now they all skype. And joining the German Club was automatic. It's the same as me and my British family, except for the club thingee.
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