Trump's Dumb Economics - Page 78 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Rancid
#15052932
Tainari88 wrote:Extremely intelligent people with big hearts full of love and who love to serve and are always helping the society? They change the world Rancid. People remember them and honor them and want to be like them. Selfish people no one cares if they die. Who would? You don't feel loving towards people who have no love in their hearts for anyone but themselves.


Counterpoint, Jeff Bezo is an asshole, and lots of people love and revere him. :hmm:
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By Godstud
#15052934
@jimjam So instead of being on a smartphone, the kids were stealing tires off of trucks. ;) Got it.
#15052938
jimjam wrote:Image
Good. I took this ^ picture from my window many years ago when I lived in Gloucester, mass. Now the kids train to be "smart" phone zombies like their parents.


I am old fashioned that way Jimjam. I believe children should be interacting, playing and having fun with their best buddy or someone they care about. Not being zombies. But I get criticized a lot for limiting cell phone use to checking on my business in the morning and before going to bed. Only twice a day for a short time. That is it. Life is out there. No time for being zoned out on some device no one really feels loved by.
#15052939
Rancid wrote:Counterpoint, Jeff Bezo is an asshole, and lots of people love and revere him. :hmm:


Do they love him really Rancid? Or they want to be rich and powerful and want his lifestyle. Those are two different things. Being loved truly by someone who will be with you always because they love who you are inside and they know you well? Versus admiration for power and a lifestyle that the way Americans live their lives? They don't even have time to enjoy their wealthy possessions and property and they spend most of their time scared of losing their powerful positions.

Enjoying life is about balance. I live in a nice house surrounded in by working class Mexicans in a working class neighborhood. I hang out with regular Mexican people who never went to college and make bread, repair bicycles, do laundry and drive taxis and ubers for a living. And I laugh and have fun and am about to go out to dinner with a mother and daughter who are housewives and office workers and nothing high falutin'. That is the kind of life I LOVE. Not the one of Jeff Bezos. Surrounded by people who admire him? Or people who want power and money and are artificial and ambitious.
#15052981
LATEST ECONOMIC REPORT:

Jobs growth soars in November as payrolls surge by 266,000
PUBLISHED FRI, DEC 6 2019

Stocks opened sharply higher in reaction to the better-than-expected report. Bond yields also surged.

“Bottom line, America is working,” Larry Kudlow, director of the National Economic Council, told CNBC’s “Squawk on the Street.” “These are very strong numbers. These are happy numbers, these are sunny Friday numbers.”

The jobs market turned in a stellar performance in November, with nonfarm payrolls surging by 266,000 and the unemployment rate falling to 3.5%, according to Labor Department numbers released Friday.

“This is a blowout number and the U.S. economy continues to be all about the jobs,” Tony Bedikian, head of global markets for Citizens Bank said in a note. “The unemployment rate is at a 50-year low and wages are increasing. Business owners may be getting more cautious due to trade and political uncertainty and growth may be slow, but consumers keep spending and the punch bowl still seems full.”

The unemployment rate of 3.5%, down from 3.6% in October, is back to the 2019 low and matches the lowest jobless rate since 1969.

“Today’s job report, more than any other report in recent months, squashed any lingering concerns about an imminent recession in the US economy,” said Gad Levanon, head of the Conference Board’s Labor Market Institute. “Employment growth also shows no signs of slowing further despite the historically low unemployment rate.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/06/us-nonf ... -2019.html
By Rugoz
#15053146
Rancid wrote:I was thinking about your earlier comment. That intelligence is nothing without heart. I agree. However, I would phrase the point a little bit differently. I would say intelligence coupled with selfishness (i.e. no heart) is the most potent and dangerous thing. Intelligence coupled with selflessness (i.e. heart) is very good.


Hitler had heart and was selfless, he was also a simpleton.
By Rich
#15053152
Rugoz wrote:Hitler had heart and was selfless, he was also a simpleton.

You write a lot of intelligent things, but that was not one of them. Hitler's achievements were incredible. The fact that he ultimately lost, the fact that his empire collapsed so quickly, unlike say Alexander and the fact that you may not value, or rather may negatively value those achievements can not negate this.

Anti Nazism is perhaps even the root absurdity of today's intellectual culture. The idea that we must not agree with, or admire Hitler in any way, otherwise, otherwise what? Otherwise something terrible.
#15053154
Rich wrote:You write a lot of intelligent things, but that was not one of them. Hitler's achievements were incredible. The fact that he ultimately lost, the fact that his empire collapsed so quickly, unlike say Alexander and the fact that you may not value, or rather may negatively value those achievements can not negate this.

Anti Nazism is perhaps even the root absurdity of today's intellectual culture. The idea that we must not agree with, or admire Hitler in any way, otherwise, otherwise what? Otherwise something terrible.

Hitler's political beliefs were not that far removed from the mainstream opinion of both European and American political thought. For example, his 'T4' sterilisation and euthanasia programme, which ultimately led to the Jewish Holocaust, was inspired by the eugenics policies of the USA in the 1920s. In fact, when Hitler first burst upon the scene, the other European leaders were falling over themselves to say nice things about him. It seemed to them that Bolshevism had posed a question, the answer to which was Hitler. Even Churchill initially thought that Hitler would defend western civilisation from the 'Judeo-Bolshevik' threat. No, the problems arose because Hitler was not content merely to defend western civilisation - he wanted to conquer it first. Not even Churchill could countenance that.
#15053158
Rich wrote:You write a lot of intelligent things, but that was not one of them. Hitler's achievements were incredible. The fact that he ultimately lost, the fact that his empire collapsed so quickly, unlike say Alexander and the fact that you may not value, or rather may negatively value those achievements can not negate this.

Anti Nazism is perhaps even the root absurdity of today's intellectual culture. The idea that we must not agree with, or admire Hitler in any way, otherwise, otherwise what? Otherwise something terrible.


I don't know what you're referring too, Hitler being a simpleton? My assassement comes from reading 20% or so of Mein Kampf. He was obviously guided by his (extreme) emotions and not by his intellect.
#15053487
Republican tax and social policy does nothing but help the rich and powerful get richer and more powerful.

The resulting inequality, growing and deepening, crushes the American dream. People ARE working hard, but wages haven't grown in decades. Relative to the 1970's when A person could work ONE lower-echelon job and still afford rent, food and health care we are poor. Today, ambitious young people do everything right, but graduate with six figures in debt. They find a home can cost in the high six or even seven figures. Health care is amazingly expensive. Our economic situation is this/close to disaster. Most Americans are living precariously. That's the opposite of the American dream of security and a bright future.

The fact that one of our two major political parties wraps itself in bibles and flags and then turns around and attacks poor and working people is truly disgusting and immoral to the core.
#15054665
jimjam wrote:The fact that one of our two major political parties wraps itself in bibles and flags and then turns around and attacks poor and working people is truly disgusting and immoral to the core.

That is obviously the Democrat Party.
By late
#15054671
jimjam wrote:
Republican tax and social policy does nothing but help the rich and powerful get richer and more powerful.

The resulting inequality, growing and deepening, crushes the American dream. People ARE working hard, but wages haven't grown in decades. Relative to the 1970's when A person could work ONE lower-echelon job and still afford rent, food and health care we are poor. Today, ambitious young people do everything right, but graduate with six figures in debt. They find a home can cost in the high six or even seven figures. Health care is amazingly expensive. Our economic situation is this/close to disaster. Most Americans are living precariously. That's the opposite of the American dream of security and a bright future.

The fact that one of our two major political parties wraps itself in bibles and flags and then turns around and attacks poor and working people is truly disgusting and immoral to the core.



And if anyone wants to see why in detail, read Stiglitz's 'The Price of Inequality'.

There are several other top economists, Pikkety, Brad Delong, but Stiglitz does the best job of explaining things to those of us (like me) that do not have a degree in economics.

"While there may be underlying economic forces at play,” he writes, “politics have shaped the market, and shaped it in ways that advantage the top at the expense of the rest.”[1] Stiglitz blames rent-seeking for causing the inequality, with the wealthy using their power to shape monopolies, incur favorable treatment by the government, and pay low taxes. The end result is not only morally wrong but also hurts the productivity in the economy.[1]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Price_of_Inequality
#15054725
Hindsite wrote:That is obviously the Democrat Party.

You are wrapped in bibles and flags …… does this mean you are now a Democrat ……. :eek: ?
#15054732
Donald talks loudly and carries a small stick. Remember "Trade wars are good and easy to win." :lol:

Trade wars rarely have victors. They do, however, sometimes have losers. And Donald has definitely turned out to be a loser.

Of course, that’s not the way he and his team are portraying the tentative deal they’ve struck with China, which they’re claiming as a triumph. The reality is that the Trump administration achieved almost none of its goals; it has basically declared victory while going into headlong retreat.

Trump’s trade antics have damaged America’s reputation.On one side, our allies have learned not to trust us. We have, after all, become the kind of country that suddenly slaps tariffs on Canada — Canada! — on obviously spurious claims that we’re protecting national security.

On the other side, our rivals have learned not to fear us. Like the North Koreans, who flattered Trump but kept on building nukes.These things matter. Having a leader who is neither trusted by our erstwhile friends nor feared by our foreign rivals reduces our global influence in ways we’re just starting to see. Trump’s trade war didn’t achieve any of its goals, but it did succeed in making America weak again. the Chinese have taken Trump’s measure. They now know that he talks loudly but carries a small stick, and backs down when confronted in ways that might hurt him politically.

And the Chinese know it. Chinese officials are “jubilant and even incredulous” at the success of their hard-line negotiating strategy.

Trump wanted to slash the U.S. trade deficit. Economists more or less unanimously consider this the wrong objective, but in Trump’s mind countries win when they sell more than they buy, and nobody is going to convince him otherwise.

So it’s remarkable to note that the trade deficit has risen, not fallen, on Trump’s watch, from $544 billion in 2016 to $691 billion in the 12 months ending in October.

So why did Trump wimp out on trade?

At a broad level, the answer is that he was suffering from delusions of grandeur. America was never going to succeed in bullying a huge, proud nation whose economy is already, by some measures, larger than ours — especially while simultaneously alienating other advanced economies that might have joined us in pressuring China to change some of its economic policies.

At a more granular level, none of the pieces of Trump trade strategy have worked as promised.
#15054823
jimjam wrote:You are wrapped in bibles and flags …… does this mean you are now a Democrat ……. :eek: ?

You are mistaken. I am not wrapped in bibles and flags.
HalleluYah
#15054825
jimjam wrote:You are wrapped in bibles and flags …… does this mean you are now a Democrat ……. :eek: ?
I think he is talking about wrapping in Bible and attacking poor and working class people being Democratic Party traits.

Regarding My Honourable Friend's comments, it depends on perspective whether that Gentleman is an attacker of poor and working class people himself.
#15055886
The explosion of the budget deficit under Trump shows that Republican claims to care about fiscal responsibility were always humbug, that they’re perfectly willing to slash taxes on the rich without offsetting spending cuts. Furthermore, because America spends relatively little money helping the poor, even harsh cuts — like the Trump administration’s new rules on food stamps, which will hurt hundreds of thousands — will at best save only tiny amounts compared with the cost of tax cuts. What Trump has brought to his party is a new willingness to be openly vicious.
#15055891
Rancid wrote:To a farmer, maybe, but not to everyone else. The idea that "all tariffs are bad" simply isn't true. There are always winners and losers when tariffs are levied (the company I work for is getting helped out by the tariffs for example). The funny thing about America is that, I remember a time in the 90s where leftists were against globalization and free trade. Now we have a president that is placing what is arguably anti-free trade policies in place, and these same people don't like it. :lol: Of course, it's because this is about politics, and not principles. This is one rare area where I side with TRumpsters.

Just re-reading the thread a bit. Indeed, one of the vocal critics against free trade with China was Nancy Pelosi.

Pelosi on China: A voice in the global wilderness?
Pelosi has emerged as a leading critic of the Chinese regime and of her own president (me: Bill Clinton), who she says has a bankrupt policy toward China.


Tainari88 wrote: And the ones who are greedy and control freaks can't trust people whom they see as the 'rabble' with running their own lives and working with some control. They can't do it. Just as the ones who loved slavery kept saying that without slavery as an institution the world can't cope. Yes it did. And this is another form of ineffective way of dealing with humanity and human labor. It has to change Relampaguito. It has an expiration date.

It is changing, but probably in ways you didn't expect. For example, Boris Johnson's victory. Noemon was saying before he stood for PM that he didn't think Johnson would even campaign for PM, because it would be a political loser. Six months on now it's a very different picture. Even Tony Blair's seat went to the Tories in a strongly Labour seat. People have had it with the establishment.

Tainari88 wrote:So what is good for you and the rich is going to work for the majority? It won't.

Free trade is good for me. Immigration not so much, as it is used to depress wages. Yet, I understand exactly how the blue collar working class folks feel.

Tainari88 wrote:Again, you suffer from lack of empathy in a big way BJ.

Well, it's just that my empathy isn't distributed according to your ideals. I feel for the Pittsburgh, PA steelworker. I'm not as interested in the Mexican migrant looking to break US immigration law and take a job from an American worker.

Tainari88 wrote:If intelligence is not coupled with heart and empathetic policies that are the best road for the vast majority of humanity?

We live in a world of nation states, not in a "global village" or with a global government.

Tainari88 wrote:I don't think capitalism is worth the many millions of lives it has cost the world. Out of sheer callous exploitation, pollution of the environment, greed and not caring about others who are not from your country or from your bank account status. For me? You are asking for species extinction....begging the world to make you extinct with that mentality for sure.

This is absurd. Capitalism coupled with Christianity has effectively saved BILLIONS of lives. It is practically the reason for "overpopulation." Life expectancy before Western science-based medicine was exported (often by Christians and Christian-based ethics and Christian-based charities) was horrid. It's precisely the spread of vaccination, medication, mosquito abatements, etc. that have saved so many people.

Tainari88 wrote:No, the human survival rate explosion was due to caring medical researchers and doctors like Dr. Silk and others who never intended to make huge profits from the discovery of Penicillin or other drugs that saved life or polio vaccines.

Well, Salk was a Jew, so my Christian point doesn't work there. However, he did his work at the University of Pittsburgh. Much of the funding for that school came from the steel industry--CAPITALISM!!! (gasp) More specifically, from the Mellon family. (gulp) Rich people. A.W. Mellon was a conservative Republican too! Prior art would have prevented Salk receiving a patent anyway. Mellon and Carnegie also founded the Carnegie-Mellon University.

Tainari88 wrote:Those type of individuals are the ones who don't believe medicine should primarily be about for profit.

Where did they get the money to do the research Azuquita? The likes of Mellon, Carnegie, etc. Very, very, obscenely rich capitalists whom you assume are just filled with greed and hatred for all mankind.

Tainari88 wrote:Those type of individuals are the ones who don't believe medicine should primarily be about for profit.

It was businessmen and bankers that bankrolled this type of research.

Tainari88 wrote:I shudder to think how you would treat people who could not afford medical care if you think it is ok to be a capitalist and waste millions in the process of what? Progress.

Salk needed a roof over his head, clothes on his back, food in his belly, and plenty of support for his research. So do other scientists. Almost all of the money in the United States for that type of research comes directly or indirectly from capitalism. In Salk's case, tons of money was coming from the Mellon family to the University of Pittsburg School of Medicine. Why do you have such disdain for the wealthy that you cannot even acknowledge them bankrolling the very university where Salk was doing his research?

Tainari88 wrote:Ay BJ, you disappoint me with your lack of corazon. It is consistent.

Polio affects rich people too. Most diseases do. They do not discriminate. Look at the endowments for many universities. It's very often the very rich who donate the money for them.

jimjam wrote:I do not recall BJ#21 or any other "capitalists" giving the slightest acknowledgement to predatory capitalism.

I work in open source software. I will not use Apple products at all, because I hate their non-standard "innovations" like lightening charger cords that piggyback on USB standards, but break them so that they only work with Apple products and fuck over their customers unnecessarily. Yet, Apple customers seem to like getting fucked over--almost prefer it. I find Apple's support service, "The Genius Bar", to be an insult to their customers. They are straight up crooks. Apple has enough cash on hand--CASH ON HAND--to buy the bottom 80% of the S&P500. Do you ever hear me lionizing Apple for that type of behavior? I would prevent them from selling anything to the US government until they use standard power cords. In fact, I would probably make laptop manufacturers adopt USB power or power-over-ethernet as the way to power laptops to stop all the fucking around people do with non-standard power systems. Yet, you know who likes Apple products the most? Leftists, artists, etc.

Rancid wrote:@Potemkin, if we have a population crash, wouldn't that destroy capitalism, given that capitalism is predicated on the need for constant (and unsustainable) growth?

Capitalism doesn't need constant growth. The current banking system and welfare state does, however. Capitalism won't go away, but the welfare state will. That's also part of hysteresis and why things could get shitty for the poor very quickly.

jimjam wrote:Trump’s tariff justifications have often been self-evidently absurd — seriously, who imagines that imports of Canadian steel threaten U.S. national security? But there’s no obvious way to stop him from imposing tariffs whenever he feels like it.

Tariffs are just taxes. It's easy to stop Trump from doing this at will--take the power away. It's Congress that has the authority to lay and collect taxes. Trump is just exercising the power that Congress gave to him, because they are too fucking lazy to do their own jobs.

Tainari88 wrote:Then I am dealing with sports, (baseball and swimming), music (guitar playing), and nature walks near the Mayan ruins with discussions about history.

Rick Beato has a pretty good channel on YouTube, and he has a pretty bulky PDF book mostly for guitar.

Tainari88 wrote:I also have a special tutor Edna, who hangs out with him an hour and a half a day and after homework, she teaches him social skills like etiquette, and how to talk to older people, how to treat others with respect, table manners, etc.

:) Yes, the British were very big on that. I have a very mixed set of messages. My grandparents were very proper, but my mother was a feminist.

Tainari88 wrote:People neglect very important basic skills like Home Economics and Social Etiquette.

How to cook is also very important. So many poor people in the United States will do things like buy frozen pizza with food stamps. You can buy 10 pounds of potatoes for $3. Rice is cheap too. Hell, just knowing how to cook with beans and rice you should never be hungry even if you are poor, unless you simply don't know how to cook. I'm pretty well off, but I'm still torn between eating out and cooking. I used to eat out all the time, but it has gotten rather expensive. I was lazy today and bought spaghetti and meatballs for lunch for $15. For $15 I could feed 10 people spaghetti and meatballs. It's easy to make a red sauce too--evoo, salt, red chili pepper, garlic, a shallot or onion, tomato sauce and diced tomatoes, some spices like basil, oregano or Italian seasoning. Basically, about $2 worth of ingredients for the meal--of course, you'd pay more for the spices you need on hand. Buy a premade sauce and it's like $5-7. We went to a steak restaurant the other night. It was about $80 with tip, and we drank water. For $100, I can buy a whole beef tenderloin at Costco and get about 10 filet mignons out of that.

Rancid wrote:Counterpoint, Jeff Bezo is an asshole, and lots of people love and revere him. :hmm:

He is indeed. He's a great innovator, but a total douchebag. People do love people with lots of money. Steve Jobs was the same thing. Total asshole, but people loved him for his innovations and the money he had.

jimjam wrote:Republican tax and social policy does nothing but help the rich and powerful get richer and more powerful.
...
People ARE working hard, but wages haven't grown in decades.

Wages are growing under Trump.

jimjam wrote:Relative to the 1970's when A person could work ONE lower-echelon job and still afford rent, food and health care we are poor.

We didn't have NAFTA or GATT or trade with a Chinese communist slave state in the 1970s.

jimjam wrote:Trump’s trade antics have damaged America’s reputation.On one side, our allies have learned not to trust us. We have, after all, become the kind of country that suddenly slaps tariffs on Canada — Canada! — on obviously spurious claims that we’re protecting national security.

Canada dumps lumber, precludes us from exporting dairy to them, etc. NAFTA didn't address those problems. Steel and aluminium are a national security issue, and Trump is absolutely right to be addressing them as such.

jimjam wrote:Like the North Koreans, who flattered Trump but kept on building nukes.

You're blaming Trump for this? How about Clinton and Bush? They did nothing when NK got nukes. They kept giving them money. Why give a communist dictatorship money? Ever? Why trade with communist dictatorships?

jimjam wrote:Trump’s trade war didn’t achieve any of its goals

What were it's goals in your mind? China is howling. To maintain marketshare, they've cut prices and lost profitability. Their stock market dived, while ours is at all time highs.

jimjam wrote:Furthermore, because America spends relatively little money helping the poor, even harsh cuts — like the Trump administration’s new rules on food stamps, which will hurt hundreds of thousands — will at best save only tiny amounts compared with the cost of tax cuts. What Trump has brought to his party is a new willingness to be openly vicious.

Total garbage. Food stamps are not an unlimited spending budget. Obama did things like allow people to buy Red Bull on food stamps. You don't need Red Bull. You don't even need frozen pizza. You should be able to buy cookbooks on food stamps. If you are poor and you've got enough time to cook, there is no reason to be hungry in the US. However, if the government is going to let lobbyists determine food stamp policy so that you can buy non-staple goods like Red Bull, etc., then they are making money at the expense of the poor and making a mockery out of the supposed "moral" obligation to help the poor. There is so much fraud in food stamps, it's incredible.
User avatar
By jimjam
#15056636
Kyle Hunt, a 40-year-old loan officer from Clive, a Des Moines suburb said that the economy where he lived seemed to be “working fine” because there were job opportunities. But he said he had also noticed recently that more people, especially minorities and women, were borrowing more money, including to pay for rent.

Mike Rowold, 72, a crop insurance adjuster of Tipton, Iowa said most people there were “not concerned about the stock market in any way, shape or form.”“That economy is a false bubble,” he said.

American household debt continues to climb to all time record levels, reaching $13.54 trillion in the fourth quarter of 2018. According to the latest report from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York's Center for Microeconomic Data, household debt is now $869 billion higher than 2008's $12.68 trillion peak.

According to the latest report from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York’s Center for Microeconomic Data, household debt is now $869 billion higher than 2008’s $12.68 trillion peak.

It is also 21.4% above the debt levels seen in the wake of the financial crisis in 2013.
User avatar
By jimjam
#15056638
The stock market is booming because the wealthy added 1 trillion dollars to their net worth and they park that money in the market. The working class however has not seen any of that money.

All you have to do is look around at the lines for food hand outs and at the tent cities of the homeless and at the number of people who have "side gigs", to see that America's standard of living is in steep decline.
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