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By Beren
#15149298
JohnRawls wrote:Ipsos Reuter did a survey, 39% are worried about the fraud claims. 21% think that the election was rigged. Not sure if you are quoting the same survey in the article.

I guess not because they're two different things. Radicals support the storming of the Capitol while others don't, so in my opinion 45% of Republican voters and 21% of all voters are radical.
User avatar
By JohnRawls
#15149300
Beren wrote:I guess not because they're two different things. Radicals support the storming of the Capitol while others don't, so in my opinion 45% of Republican voters and 21% of all voters are radical.


The 45% figure is probably the one that asked "Are you worried about election fraud claims" basically. Any sane person would be worried about it and it is a rigged question in the first place. If somebody asked me that in Estonia then I would answer yes almost 100% of the time. It is a whole different matter if I believe that election fraud happened or not. The survey had a question for that also which 21 responded positively and 79 basically negatively.
User avatar
By Beren
#15149301
JohnRawls wrote:The 45% figure is probably the one that asked "Are you worried about election fraud claims" basically.

I guess they were simply asked if they supported the storming of the Capitol.
User avatar
By colliric
#15149304
JohnRawls wrote:Right, that is not what usually happens. But keep on dreaming.


But it does happen on occasion. It happened here with Pauline Hanson. Took back control of One Nation(now "Pauline Hanson's One Nation"!) and got re-elected into the Senate with her party's resurgent election success. All of this happened after her jail time. Crushed conviction might have helped though, I'll admit.

There's no time for a lesson in civics, my boy. In the 5th century B.C., the citizens of Athens, having suffered grievously under a tyrant, managed to depose and banish him. However, when he returned after some years, with an army of mercenaries, those same citizens not only opened the gates to him, but stood by while he executed members of the Legal Government


.... Happens often enough to be referenced in the classic film High Noon.
#15149312
noemon wrote:Your claims and your articles are disingenuous.

No they aren't. You claimed that BLM in Europe/outside USA are in solidarity and not for protests for problems within their own country. The articles I linked to are undeniable factual proof that your claim is wrong. There's BLM chapters all over Europe, Canada etc. that are fighting for black rights and better treatment by police in their own countries. You've been making a bunch of incorrect factual claims.

Your first article informs you of the vast difference between Europe and the US. 1 Black person was killed 4 years ago in France and people are still protesting that. Just in the first couple of months of the previous year I recall at least 4 incidents of Black people being killed by police and that was just the tip of the iceberg. If police kills more than 1 Black person "just because" in a single year in Europe and a pattern emerges, there will be protests, riots and the government will eventually resign. Europe does not have a BLM issue on its hands first because the Black population is small and second because police are very very different.
...
The assumption that the rest of the west resembles 'Murica in this regard is incorrect indeed. It doesn't.

This is all a strawman because I never claimed or even hinted that police mistreatment of blacks is as serious in Europe or the rest of the West as it is in the US. The US is indeed a special kind of effed up. What I said is that there's BLM protests outside of the US in western countries for problems inside their countries, which is an indisputable fact that is a google search away to confirm and I already provided some.

In the UK which is the only country with a substantial Black population, police do not even carry guns.

France has 5.5 million black people, which is the most in the EU and far more than the UK. Again more incorrect truth claims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Eur ... n_ancestry

This happens almost every day to Black people in the US and most of the times noone gets charged for anything. :roll:

I agree it's totally wrong and disgusting and needs to change. My argument is that CHAZ or other riots are not a democratic or just way to deal with that. I think riots are only ethically justified once all peaceful and/or non-violent means of protest have been exhausted. And blocking streets or other civil disobedience should come before vandalism and violence.

That is mature politics, not the circus freak show you have down there that has reached surreal levels.

I'm not an American, and I agree that different politicians and citizens in the US behave like immature goons and fools and it's a joke.

In the UK, city councils have to give organisations a permit to block the road for a political protest which they grant most of the times unless they have a very good reason not to, because if they don't, they will be called fascists and will then have a much bigger problem on their hands.

They have to give organizations a permit because blocking the street is illegal and therefore needs a permit, which sounds like a logical system to have, and I have no problem with a legal process like this. Streets are blocked all the time legally where the blockers obtain a permit, like for various street races/marathons, parades, film shoots etc.

Street blocking for protests is a staple, part of the furniture in a democracy. And obviously an organisation cannot block the street for a ridiculous protest because then the people inconvenienced by it will turn on the organisation and their cause, so it is not as simple as "anyone holding society hostage", society has the brains to determine whether the cause is worth it or not. If it isn't, it will end before it even takes off.

You either have rights or you don't. Rights are created to protect people from citizens/governments that don't agree with them, that's the whole point. If you think BLM can block streets without a permit then you should also support the right of non-violent rightwingers you don't like to do the same (if they're otherwise following the law ie: not threatening to violence). You don't just get to cause all sorts of illegal mayhem because a lot of people support the goal you're pursuing. However, if you've exhausted basically all legal and peaceful means and the city won't give you a permit then ok it's possible illegally blocking streets is then ethically justified.

My point is IMO your defending CHAZ simply because you believe the end political goal they're pursuing is nonsense, sometimes the ends don't justify the means. As for rioting Trumpsters well they can go eff themselves & their made-up alternate reality.
User avatar
By noemon
#15149324
Unthinking Majority wrote:You claimed that BLM in Europe/outside USA are in solidarity and not for protests for problems within their own country. The articles I linked to are undeniable factual proof that your claim is wrong.


Your disingenuous posting has reached the level of pathetic. Let's rewind, because you have swapped your straw-man for the argument and vice versa:

Unthinking Majority wrote:Why would you assume this? What do you mean by "brought down"? They've had BLM protests in other western countries.


Was ist this?

noemon wrote:In any democratic government in the West, BLM would have brought down any elected government instantly.


I told you that the BLM protests in Europe were in solidarity with the BLM cause in the US and not out of a need to stop a rather enormous pattern of Black people getting killed by European police. There is no such pattern in Europe and if Europe had so many deaths the government would have resigned even before any protests.

noemon wrote:No European government would have survived so many dead Black people to begin with, but even if by some accident they would have, the extent of the BLM protests would have caused the resignation of any democratic government in Europe.


Your 2 articles, 1 from France and 1 from Canada proved my point to the t and also proved that both events took place in solidarity to the BLM in the US as stated in both of your articles explicitly:

Article 1 wrote:Thousands of people have rallied near Paris to mark four years since the death in custody of Adama Traore. His case, bolstered by the Black Lives Matter movement, has put renewed focus on alleged police racism in France.


Article 2 wrote:It came on the same day that the police services board held a meeting, its first since the killing of George Floyd by Minneapolis police, which sparked a wave of protests around the world. During this, Hart pledged a town hall for the week of July 6.


Article 1 cites the death of 1 Black person in France 4 years ago and the second cites 2 Canadian names, presumably the only 2 names they could muster.

Unthinking Majority wrote:This is all a strawman because I never claimed or even hinted that police mistreatment of blacks is as serious in Europe or the rest of the West as it is in the US. The US is indeed a special kind of effed up. What I said is that there's BLM protests outside of the US in western countries for problems inside their countries, which is an indisputable fact that is a google search away to confirm and I already provided some.


It's funny when people forget the point they were discussing in their ridiculous attempt to strawman themselves. That was the point all along, that was why you asked me the question you originally did, now you think the point is the strawman and your strawman to evade the point the actual point. :lol:

The point that I made was that the sheer number of deaths by police brutality in the US would have brought down any western government. And it's true and your articles further buttressed my point because 1 and 2 deaths respectively have caused massive outcry, while in the US it has taken hundreds if not thousands of Black deaths to even make a dent.

France has 5.5 million black people, which is the most in the EU and far more than the UK. Again more incorrect truth claims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Eur ... n_ancestry


France's Black population of 5.5 is a guesstimate that includes citizens, refugees, migrants and whatever. Britain's 2.5 million Black population is from an official census in 2011. Census do not normally catch people outside the system, while guesstimates try to approximate the total number including those outside the system. I live in the UK and visit France 3-4 times a year, every year, I have scoured the country in all 4 corners; the Black population in the UK seems significantly higher than in France. But whatever, it's not even a point of contention in our discussion that has any particular meaning. You can have it and it makes no difference. But giving this away to you would still be disingenuous because what I said was:

Europe does not have a BLM issue namely because a) The Black population is small and b) because the police does not operate like the American police. I further added that in the country with the most substantial Black people in Europe(UK) police do not even carry weapons and your article has shown that in France getting killed by the police if you 're a Black person is not an actual issue as only a single person has died out of 5.5 million in more than 4 years now. The UK and France together account for 2/3 of the entire Black population in Europe(and that includes both Russia & Turkey!).
Your wiki article had you actually bothered to read it, further buttressed my point:

your wiki gotcha that boomeranged wrote:All together, from these estimates and statistics there are roughly 12.2 million Black people in Europe, with over two-thirds from the United Kingdom or France.


I agree it's totally wrong and disgusting and needs to change. My argument is that CHAZ or other riots are not a democratic or just way to deal with that. I think riots are only ethically justified once all peaceful and/or non-violent means of protest have been exhausted. And blocking streets or other civil disobedience should come before vandalism and violence.


How many more Black people need to die before you consider their peaceful protestations as totally worthless and warranting more action?

Apparently, you think France has a problem for 1 Black person dead among 5.5 million in 4 years, the US number is 1 in 1000 Black people at the hands of the police. :knife:

That number alone would have caused the downfall of any western democratic government even before protests would kick in, but if it didn't and it reached that number, people would simply burn the entire country down in the face of such an injustice.

I'm not an American, and I agree that different politicians and citizens in the US behave like immature goons and fools and it's a joke.


I don't care what you claim you are. You are here arguing for these crap from the POV of an American nationalist, nobody cares if you actually are one or not.

You either have rights or you don't. Rights are created to protect people from citizens/governments that don't agree with them, that's the whole point. If you think BLM can block streets without a permit then you should also support the right of non-violent rightwingers you don't like to do the same (if they're otherwise following the law ie: not threatening to violence). You don't just get to cause all sorts of illegal mayhem because a lot of people support the goal you're pursuing. However, if you've exhausted basically all legal and peaceful means and the city won't give you a permit then ok it's possible illegally blocking streets is then ethically justified.

My point is IMO your defending CHAZ simply because you believe the end political goal they're pursuing is nonsense, sometimes the ends don't justify the means. As for rioting Trumpsters well they can go eff themselves & their made-up alternate reality.


Of course I do, as long as they can prove the righteousness of their cause, I do not care who is protesting. All protestors are judged by the cause they are promoting, the first thing you ask when you see a protest is "what are they doing it for, what do they want"? I have already provided several examples of murderers and rapists not having a righteous cause to protest for their right to murder and rape respectively. 1 in 1000 Black people dead by police is a righteous cause, seeking your due wages is a righteous cause, Trumpsters performing a pathetic coup is not a righteous cause but that does not mean that right-wing people never have a righteous cause to protest for.
User avatar
By Beren
#15149326
Rancid wrote:Anyway, he's not going to prison, so whatever.

He's going to pardon himself anyway, even for treason, and Republican congressmen and women will be fine with that because half their base will be fine with that as well. Only in America. :knife:
User avatar
By Rancid
#15149327
JohnRawls wrote:
I am not saying it WILL happen but the chance is not near 0 anymore. It is probably over 50% in my opinion now. The situation is finally setting in and a lot of the Republican both the politicians and voters are not liking what they have seen.


Reports have been saying that Trump is looking to issue himself and his family a pardon for the entirety of his presidency.
User avatar
By jimjam
#15149329
Just before Mr. Pence headed to the Capitol to oversee the electoral vote count last Wednesday, Mr. Trump called the vice president’s residence to push one last time.

“You can either go down in history as a patriot,” Mr. Trump told him, according to two people briefed on the conversation, “or you can go down in history as a pussy.”

Evacuated to the basement, Mr. Pence huddled for hours while Mr. Trump tweeted out an attack on him rather than call to check on his safety.

Image

eight more days of looking at this ^ pathetic loser :eek:
User avatar
By Drlee
#15149330
There is no certainty that the SCOTUS would uphold a self pardon.
User avatar
By Beren
#15149332
Drlee wrote:There is no certainty that the SCOTUS would uphold a self pardon.

I'm glad to hear that because all that self-pardon thing is insanely absurd.
User avatar
By jimjam
#15149334
Image

“I will personally work to defeat every single Republican Senator/Congressman who doesn’t stand up against this fraud – they will be primaried in their next election and they will lose.” E.Trump :lol: :lol: :lol:

Question: Is E.Trump a bigger ass hole than his obese daddy?
By wat0n
#15149336
Drlee wrote:There is no certainty that the SCOTUS would uphold a self pardon.


And if it failed, he would have incriminated himself, because there is SCOTUS precedent establishing that granting a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and accepting one is an admission of guilt.
User avatar
By Rancid
#15149338
jimjam wrote:Image

“I will personally work to defeat every single Republican Senator/Congressman who doesn’t stand up against this fraud – they will be primaried in their next election and they will lose.” E.Trump :lol: :lol: :lol:

Question: Is E.Trump a bigger ass hole than his obese daddy?


Yea, the guy is a real piece of fucking shit.
User avatar
By colliric
#15149341


Pence and Biden apparently both oppose impeachment. Pence also refused to be pressured by the Democrats this time to act unconstitutionally. Hypocrites they are.
User avatar
By colliric
#15149347
Rancid wrote::eh:


The President is not declared mentally ill, incapacitated or disabled. Needs a diagnosis by a qualified impartial practitioner first. Unconstitutional to use that in the manner the Democrats are pressuring him to. Basically telling Pence he needs to diagnose the President as mentally ill.

Despite what you think.
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