[Pants-of-dog]

Migration has to do with poor people looking for a better future. The West is the best and the West is capitalist. Haiti is capitalist but no one migrates there. North Korea is socialist, but no one leaves for the West because they are victims of the dictatorship.

This is not rocket science. Your playing with words is a transparent way to avoid the facts.

It is a fact that the migrants being discussed in this thread are mainly coming from El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala.

It is a fact that these countries are capitalist.

While socialism may be a cause of migration, it is not relevant in this particular case.

[Julian658]

It is a fact that the migrants being discussed in this thread are mainly coming from El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala.

It is a fact that these countries are capitalist.

While socialism may be a cause of migration, it is not relevant in this particular case.

As a Latin I recognize that there are countries in in Latin America that are dirt poor. Countries where there is a rich oligarchy of Spanish settlers. As I said, declaring capitalism does not reduce the poverty in these sh**holes-----so you are correct. Haitian capitalism is probably as bad or worse than Cuban socialism. I don't know which one is worse. If you are dirt poor socialism is the way to go.

[Pants-of-dog]

I see.

You are just looking for a chance to trash talk socialism, and you do not care how it relates (or does not relate) to the thread.

[Julian658]

I see.

You are just looking for a chance to trash talk socialism, and you do not care how it relates (or does not relate) to the thread.

We cannot save the poor of the world. I thought you have read Ayn Rand.
What we should do is try to help those countries, but history has shown that providing external help almost never solves the problem The money goes
to corrupt people on both the left and the right.

This is the history of the world. Some people do better than others. There is no equality. Stop your futile idealism and be a bit more logical.

[Pants-of-dog]

We cannot save the poor of the world. I thought you have read Ayn Rand.
What we should do is try to help those countries, but history has shown that providing external help almost never solves the problem The money goes
to corrupt people on both the left and the right.

This is the history of the world. Some people do better than others. There is no equality. Stop your futile idealism and be a bit more logical.

I did read Ayn Rand, and then I dismissed most of:what she had to say because most of her ideas were as fictional as her novels. We can save the poor. We have had the technology and resources to eradicate poverty for decades now.

But if we choose to believe that capitalism is organic and natural and inevitable as you seem to religiously believe, then the vast economic inequality and the drug violence that fuels these migrants are also organic and natural and inevitable.

And so the migrants will not stop coming. They will keep sneaking in, or overstaying their visas, or dying with their children in their arms in rivers and deserts, and eventually your country will be a country of poor brown people who speak Spanish.

[Sivad]

And so the migrants will not stop coming. They will keep sneaking in, or overstaying their visas, or dying with their children in their arms in rivers and deserts, and eventually your country will be a country of poor brown people who speak Spanish.

Nah, it'll break hard right before that happens and the world will have a legit fascist apartheid superpower on its hands. The open borders left is playing with some dangerous fire, the backlash they're provoking is gonna be extreme.

[Godstud]

The only people talking about Open Borders, are the right-wingers, who use this lie as a talking point. I thought you were smart enough to see this for what it is, @Sivad. Sad.

[SpecialOlympian]

Nah, it'll break hard right before that happens and the world will have a legit fascist apartheid superpower on its hands. The open borders left is playing with some dangerous fire, the backlash they're provoking is gonna be extreme.

The same people are going to be racist and cheer on concentration camps no matter the situation. Better give them everything they want, just in case.

[Julian658]

I did read Ayn Rand, and then I dismissed most of:what she had to say because most of her ideas were as fictional as her novels. We can save the poor. We have had the technology and resources to eradicate poverty for decades now.

But if we choose to believe that capitalism is organic and natural and inevitable as you seem to religiously believe, then the vast economic inequality and the drug violence that fuels these migrants are also organic and natural and inevitable.

And so the migrants will not stop coming. They will keep sneaking in, or overstaying their visas, or dying with their children in their arms in rivers and deserts, and eventually your country will be a country of poor brown people who speak Spanish.

Why do you think America has to take care of the poor brown people of the world? Why do you think that asking for help actually works?

[Sivad]

Trump put thousands of immigrants in concentration camps, Hillary Clinton collapsed an entire country:

Hillary Clinton admits role in Honduran coup aftermath

In a recent op-ed in The Washington Post, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton used a review of Henry Kissinger’s latest book, “World Order,” to lay out her vision for “sustaining America’s leadership in the world.” In the midst of numerous global crises, she called for return to a foreign policy with purpose, strategy and pragmatism. She also highlighted some of these policy choices in her memoir “Hard Choices” and how they contributed to the challenges that Barack Obama’s administration now faces.

The chapter on Latin America, particularly the section on Honduras, a major source of the child migrants currently pouring into the United States, has gone largely unnoticed. In letters to Clinton and her successor, John Kerry, more than 100 members of Congress have repeatedly warned about the deteriorating security situation in Honduras, especially since the 2009 military coup that ousted the country’s democratically elected President Manuel Zelaya. As Honduran scholar Dana Frank points out in Foreign Affairs, the U.S.-backed post-coup government “rewarded coup loyalists with top ministries,” opening the door for further “violence and anarchy.”

The homicide rate in Honduras, already the highest in the world, increased by 50 percent from 2008 to 2011; political repression, the murder of opposition political candidates, peasant organizers and LGBT activists increased and continue to this day. Femicides skyrocketed. The violence and insecurity were exacerbated by a generalized institutional collapse. Drug-related violence has worsened amid allegations of rampant corruption in Honduras’ police and government. While the gangs are responsible for much of the violence, Honduran security forces have engaged in a wave of killings and other human rights crimes with impunity.

Despite this, however, both under Clinton and Kerry, the State Department’s response to the violence and military and police impunity has largely been silence, along with continued U.S. aid to Honduran security forces. In “Hard Choices,” Clinton describes her role in the aftermath of the coup that brought about this dire situation. Her firsthand account is significant both for the confession of an important truth and for a crucial false testimony.

First, the confession: Clinton admits that she used the power of her office to make sure that Zelaya would not return to office. “In the subsequent days [after the coup] I spoke with my counterparts around the hemisphere, including Secretary [Patricia] Espinosa in Mexico,” Clinton writes. “We strategized on a plan to restore order in Honduras and ensure that free and fair elections could be held quickly and legitimately, which would render the question of Zelaya moot.”

This may not come as a surprise to those who followed the post-coup drama closely. (See my commentary from 2009 on Washington’s role in helping the coup succeed here, here and here.) But the official storyline, which was dutifully accepted by most in the media, was that the Obama administration actually opposed the coup and wanted Zelaya to return to office.

The question of Zelaya was anything but moot. Latin American leaders, the United Nations General Assembly and other international bodies vehemently demanded his immediate return to office. Clinton’s defiant and anti-democratic stance spurred a downward slide in U.S. relations with several Latin American countries, which has continued. It eroded the warm welcome and benefit of the doubt that even the leftist governments in region offered to the newly installed Obama administration a few months earlier.

Clinton’s false testimony is even more revealing. She reports that Zelaya was arrested amid “fears that he was preparing to circumvent the constitution and extend his term in office.” This is simply not true. As Clinton must know, when Zelaya was kidnapped by the military and flown out of the country in his pajamas on June 28, 2009, he was trying to put a consultative, nonbinding poll on the ballot to ask voters whether they wanted to have a real referendum on reforming the constitution during the scheduled election in November. It is important to note that Zelaya was not eligible to run in that election. Even if he had gotten everything he wanted, it was impossible for Zelaya to extend his term in office. But this did not stop the extreme right in Honduras and the United States from using false charges of tampering with the constitution to justify the coup.

In addition to her bold confession and Clinton’s embrace of the far-right narrative in the Honduran episode, the Latin America chapter is considerably to the right of even her own record on the region as secretary of state. This appears to be a political calculation. There is little risk of losing votes for admitting her role in making most of the hemisphere’s governments disgusted with the United States. On the other side of the equation, there are influential interest groups and significant campaign money to be raised from the right-wing Latin American lobby, including Floridian Cuban-Americans and their political fundraisers.

Like the 54-year-old failed embargo against Cuba, Clinton’s position on Latin America in her bid for the presidency is another example of how the far right exerts disproportionate influence on U.S. foreign policy in the hemisphere.

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2 ... olicy.html

So Obama, Clinton, and Kerry created the crisis that's driving this immigration, they imploded an entire society and caused ten thousand times the violence and suffering of
Trump's concentration camps, but the liberals are the good guys and Trump is a racist monster.

Where were the sjw dipshits when Obama and Clinton were doing mass mayhem to Honduras? Oh yeah, they were battling 4chan trolls on the internet and punching Richard Spencer. Fucking douchebags.

[Sivad]

Better give them everything they want, just in case.

Or you could just come off the retarded bullshit, acknowledge that mass immigration is a tool of ruling class oppression, and begin to address the problem like a reasonable honest person. Simple honesty would completely derail the right and would make the left politically unstoppable. The left would take over the country and from there could begin to holistically repair the damage at the source rendering the issue of mass immigration moot.

[Pants-of-dog]

Why do you think America has to take care of the poor brown people of the world? Why do you think that asking for help actually works?

Since I never claimed either of these things, this is all a strawman.

————————

Nah, it'll break hard right before that happens and the world will have a legit fascist apartheid superpower on its hands. The open borders left is playing with some dangerous fire, the backlash they're provoking is gonna be extreme.

Actually, neither you nor @Julian658 are correct about what the future will bring.

For the foreseeable future, everything will remain more or less the same. The demographic changes that scare everyone will actually be quite minimal.

[SpecialOlympian]

Or you could just come off the retarded bullshit, acknowledge that mass immigration is a tool of ruling class oppression, and begin to address the problem like a reasonable honest person.

Yeah sure I bet engaging in good faith conversation with people desperately trying to hide their unbridled joy at seeing the people who benefit least from this being punished will be productive.

[Suntzu]

We need to take the photo of these dead immigrants and post it all over Central America.

Maybe they will stay home.

[SpecialOlympian]

Here's a fun thought experiment:

Imagine if I went to my local Home Depot parking lot and picked up a migrant laborer. I tell him that I will pay him a consistent daily wage of $5 if he posts two times a day on Politics Forum dot Org. Any topic, any thread, all he has to do is post. It could literally just be "a."

How much better do you think his posts would be than Suntzu's? Do you think this hypothetical immigrant laborer would put more effort into his posts than Suntzu?

I do. It's not a high hurdle to jump.

And now I can see why Suntzu feels threatened by immigrant labor.

[blackjack21]

How much better do you think his posts would be than Suntzu's?

I'm sure the illegal immigrant could post something more substantive than you have so far. In the instant case, the father is responsible for his own death and his daughter's death. There really isn't more to the case than that; other than he was clearly induced by establishment politicians and NGOs trying to exploit cheap labor. Liberal ideology kills.

[SpecialOlympian]

Thanks Beej. Everyone was wondering what the dying Boomer with a death clench on his Lay-Z-Boy demographic was thinking.

I like how you've been conditioned to think throwing "NGO" into a sentence makes it clear you're describing bad things.

[SpecialOlympian]

I call employers "Non-Government Organizations" because I value the humanity of migrant laborers, and do not want to see them placed in camps. I am sick of all these Engeeos taking advantage of these poor economic refugees.

How do you do, fellow kids?

[Sivad]

Yeah sure I bet engaging in good faith conversation with people desperately trying to hide their unbridled joy at seeing the people who benefit least from this being punished will be productive.

The idea isn't to bring wingnuts to reason, the idea is to reach the people that occupy the political center which happen to be the bulk of the electorate. Swaying that center is what politics is all about and for that honesty is more powerful than bullshit.

The rise of the right is directly attributable to the fact that the liberal establishment has completely discredited itself with a huge segment of the working and middle classes by all its crazy bullshitting. If you want to sway those people your way you're gonna have to be honest with them and call bullshit on the liberal establishment and its mass immigration agenda. Otherwise you're just a born to lose sjw pointlessly feuding with rightwing internet trolls.

[SpecialOlympian]

the liberal establishment has completely discredited itself with a huge segment of the working and middle classes by all its crazy bullshitting.

Lmfao

First off, this coming from the guy who screeches hysterically while conflating classical liberals with American Liberals and also George Soros.

And, yes, absolutely, Liberalism has defeated itself by offering actual shared ownership alternatives to the current economic model. By too far.

Do you think if the workers owned a factory they would vote to outsource their jobs? No. Lol. That's a stupid question.

But it's not the kind of question you ask, and then you ask stupid questions and attribute the answers to leftism. Which you fundamentally don't understand, because you Admin Edit: Rule 2 Violation