[Pants-of-dog]

And once again you demonstrate your lack of reading comprehension, since I have never said anything remotely like that.

It was an implied assumption in your argument that most of the undocumented migrants were criminals.

This is, once again, the implied and racist argument that is the very basis of this thread.

This supposed relationship between undocumented migrants and crime has been disproven in this thread with scientific studies. And yet you keep posting questionable “articles” that keep perpetuating the same incorrect and disproven relationship which also perpetuates the racist stereotypes about Latinos that has served Trump so well.

I even asked you to discuss how people in his administration worked with Breitbart to spread these kinds of stories, and you refused.

While I am unable to force you to discuss how this racism helps Trump and the employers who use undocumented migrant labour, you are also unable to stop me from clarifying the racism in your thread.

———————

@Unthinking Majority

The law is not necessarily fair.

It was illegal to harbor slaves when slavery was legal. It was illegal to shelter Jews in Nazi Germany. And other examples abound of unjust laws.

In the case of US undocumented migrants, the basic lack of justice is in how the law is enforced by ICE. Thousands of workers are arrested and deported each year. A few managers might get charged. Business owners get off scot free. One became POTUS.

If you are going to argue about the sanctity of law while ignoring lawbreakers who happen to own businesses, your argument loses strength.

[Doug64]

It was an implied assumption in your argument that most of the undocumented migrants were criminals.

I didn't bother to read most of your post, because I've never argued that most undocumented aliens are criminals, in the sense of violating the law other than entering or remaining in the country illegally. Mind, if someone was to argue that most undocumented aliens have engaged in identity theft or falsification of documents I'd give that a look since that makes sense, but at the moment I can't say that's true one way or another.

[Doug64]

duplicate, oops!

[Pants-of-dog]

I didn't bother to read most of your post, because I've never argued that most undocumented aliens are criminals, in the sense of violating the law other than entering or remaining in the country illegally. Mind, if someone was to argue that most undocumented aliens have engaged in identity theft or falsification of documents I'd give that a look since that makes sense, but at the moment I can't say that's true one way or another.

I never said you claimed that.

Would you care to discuss the racist aspects of your argument?

[Unthinking Majority]

@Unthinking Majority

The law is not necessarily fair.

It was illegal to harbor slaves when slavery was legal. It was illegal to shelter Jews in Nazi Germany. And other examples abound of unjust laws.

Saying "the law isn't necessarily fair" because of "slavery and Nazi germany" isn't an excuse to just break whatever laws aren't in your interests or you don't agree with. It's fair to not be allowed to enter/stay in any country you choose for whatever reason you choose, to work without a valid social security number, to overstay your visa etc. The immigration laws in the US are virtually the same as every other western liberal democracy.

If temporary foreign workers or permanent immigrants are needed in certain jobs/industries, they can be brought in through legal means.

In the case of US undocumented migrants, the basic lack of justice is in how the law is enforced by ICE. Thousands of workers are arrested and deported each year. A few managers might get charged. Business owners get off scot free. One became POTUS.

ICE, like all law enforcement, sometimes abuses their power and break the law themselves, and that is wrong and is 100% unacceptable. I also agree with you that in order to rectify the problem the authorities need to go after the employers too, and I have argued this.

If you are going to argue about the sanctity of law while ignoring lawbreakers who happen to own businesses, your argument loses strength.

I've already said what I think about employers who break the law.

[Pants-of-dog]

Saying "the law isn't necessarily fair" because of "slavery and Nazi germany" isn't an excuse to just break whatever laws aren't in your interests or you don't agree with. It's fair to not be allowed to enter/stay in any country you choose for whatever reason you choose, to work without a valid social security number, to overstay your visa etc. The immigration laws in the US are virtually the same as every other western liberal democracy.

If temporary foreign workers or permanent immigrants are needed in certain jobs/industries, they can be brought in through legal means.

So why is the law the best guide in this case? Neither the migrants nor their US employers follow it. The average US consumer benefits from this lack of following laws. As far as I can tell, the law does not stop or deter undocumented migration in any way. All it does is act as a stick with which employers can threaten their workers.

ICE, like all law enforcement, sometimes abuses their power and break the law themselves, and that is wrong and is 100% unacceptable. I also agree with you that in order to rectify the problem the authorities need to go after the employers too, and I have argued this.

I've already said what I think about employers who break the law.

Well, it is nice to see you being fair in this regard.

But the US is not as fair as you, and in the US right now, the law is applied unfairly.

[Unthinking Majority]

So why is the law the best guide in this case? Neither the migrants nor their US employers follow it.

Because the law hasn't been enforced properly for decades. Because the politicians in government are corrupt and stupid. Laws that aren't enforced don't do very much.

The average US consumer benefits from this lack of following laws.

Creating a permanent underclass seems like a bad solution. They are treated like crap by employers, many employees & employers not paying proper taxes, lots of tax and social security fraud going on. That's not fair at all.

As far as I can tell, the law does not stop or deter undocumented migration in any way. All it does is act as a stick with which employers can threaten their workers.

The law isn't the only thing needed for deterrence, you need enforcement and consequences for breaking the law. You won't catch every person skirting the law, but the rule of law is better than chaos and that can be seen all through the developed/developing world.

But the US is not as fair as you, and in the US right now, the law is applied unfairly.

Or not at all. These issues are the problem. The US government is bought off, which is the main issue with the large majority of American problems.

[Pants-of-dog]

Because the law hasn't been enforced properly for decades. Because the politicians in government are corrupt and stupid. Laws that aren't enforced don't do very much.

Creating a permanent underclass seems like a bad solution. They are treated like crap by employers, many employees & employers not paying proper taxes, lots of tax and social security fraud going on. That's not fair at all.

The law isn't the only thing needed for deterrence, you need enforcement and consequences for breaking the law. You won't catch every person skirting the law, but the rule of law is better than chaos and that can be seen all through the developed/developing world.

Or not at all. These issues are the problem. The US government is bought off, which is the main issue with the large majority of American problems.

Your odd worship of law notwithstanding, the law in the US will not be followed for the foreseeable future. And this is because the system as it is right now makes people money.

This is why Trump and his ilk want undocumented migrants to keep coming and working, while at the same time these business owners want them to be illegal and to have to deal with the racism that this thread perpetuates: because this way they have a working class with no rights that is hated by large portions of white working class.

[Doug64]

I never said you claimed that.

To quote your post: “It was an implied assumption in your argument that most of the undocumented migrants were criminals.”

Would you care to discuss the racist aspects of your argument?

There are no racist aspects of my argument. Immigration laws should be enforced, and especially criminal undocumented aliens deported, race is irrelevant. It’s the racists of the Left that want to make everything about race, not the equalitarian Conservatives.

And things get even worse in Virginia, though hopefully the worst aspects of this is a mistake rather than a de facto policy:

Virginia county escalates sanctuary battle with ICE

Prince William County’s jail released an illegal immigrant late last month despite a federal criminal warrant for his arrest, marking what federal officials see as an escalation of sanctuary policies.

Edras Onel Vasquez-Perez, 25, had been deported before. When he was found in the U.S. again, federal authorities persuaded a magistrate judge to issue a felony warrant for his arrest.

Prince William County police arrested Mr. Vasquez-Perez on Sept. 28 on charges of assaulting a family member, but the jail released him a day later, apparently ignoring both the criminal warrant and a detainer request from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

The Prince William-Manassas Regional Adult Detention Center recently enacted a sanctuary policy, but defying a criminal warrant appears to go beyond the terms of that policy, and it surprised ICE officials.

Indeed, most sanctuary city advocates say criminal warrants are what they want ICE to obtain. Deportation officers usually file administrative warrants, not approved by a judge, to accompany detainer requests, which are a matter of civil law.

“Prince William County’s new noncooperation policy ignores common-sense public safety policies for the sake of politics, even to the point of ignoring a federal criminal warrant issued by a U.S. District Court,” said Matthew Munroe, acting director of ICE’s Washington field office, which covers Prince William County.

“When local jurisdictions choose to treat a federal law enforcement agency differently, ignoring lawful detainers and warrants, it puts the public at risk, plain and simple,” Mr. Munroe said.

Neither Col. Pete Meletis, superintendent of the jail, nor Prince William County Sheriff Glendell Hill, who serves as chairman of the jail board, responded to inquiries last week, and it’s not clear whether the defiance was an oversight or intentional.

Jessica Vaughan, policy studies director at the Center for Immigration Studies, said it was “extremely rare” not to comply with a warrant from any fellow law enforcement agency, much less a federal warrant.

“It might even be a violation of the terms of the law enforcement information-sharing agreements. The Department of Justice should look into how this happened and whether there should be some consequences,” she said.

ICE ended up nabbing Mr. Vasquez-Perez in Woodbridge on Oct. 7 as deportation officers swept through six sanctuary areas of Washington, Baltimore, Seattle, Denver, New York and Philadelphia.

All told, more than 170 illegal immigrants were nabbed, including 23 in the Washington region: 12 in Maryland and 11 in Virginia.

Immigrant rights groups said the wave of arrests was an attempt at “scaring immigrants” ahead of Election Day.

“Violating the sanctity of sanctuary jurisdictions in battleground states like Pennsylvania is not part of ‘routine operations,’” said Gustavo Torres, president of CASA in Action, a major activist group operating in the mid-Atlantic. “Trump himself is scared of immigrants exercising their right to vote.”

The number of sanctuary jurisdictions has soared on President Trump’s watch as communities mount resistance to his get-tough talk. Although the policies vary, they all involve refusing cooperation of some sort.

Some jurisdictions refuse to hold ICE targets for pickup but will call to alert ICE before release, giving deportation officers a chance to be on hand. Other jurisdictions refuse all cooperation.

Prince William and some other jurisdictions say they chart a middle ground.

Under the jail’s policy, adopted weeks ago, someone booked in on a misdemeanor will be shielded but someone booked in on a felony will be held for up to two hours for ICE pickup.

Mr. Vasquez-Perez sneaked into the U.S. as an unaccompanied alien child in 2012. Under U.S. policy, that meant he was released to sponsors.

Four years later, he was arrested in Montgomery County, Maryland, on eight charges, including robbery, assault and hate crimes. He pleaded guilty to a single assault charge, was sentenced to 18 months and then was deported.

It’s not clear when he sneaked back into the country, but he was indicted by a federal grand jury in Newport News, Virginia, in 2019 on a charge of illegal reentry, a felony punishable by up to 20 years in prison.

A magistrate judge then issued an arrest warrant that, according to court documents, was still valid when police in Prince William County nabbed him last month.

Prince William used to be one of the country’s most cooperative jurisdictions when it came to relationships with ICE.

Over the past year, though, the county allowed its cooperation agreement with ICE to lapse. The jail then implemented its new sanctuary policy.

Ms. Vaughan said the slide from cooperation to ignoring a felony warrant was striking.

“It’s quite a turnaround from the successful partnerships of recent years, and the residents of Prince William County soon might start feeling some buyer’s remorse for these new officials,” she said.

As more communities adopt sanctuary policies, ICE is getting more aggressive in its pushback.

The agency has purchased billboard space in Pennsylvania to highlight a half-dozen targets who have been released by sanctuary communities in that state.

Acting Homeland Security Secretary Chad Wolf said the goal is to raise awareness among residents about the consequences of sanctuary policies.

Sanctuary communities argue that cooperation with ICE and the agency’s presence scare some communities and hinder their willingness to report crimes to local authorities.

The data is unclear on whether that is true.

But Mr. Wolf said if sanctuaries are trying to protect illegal immigrants, then it’s backfiring.

When communities cooperate, ICE can pick them up in prisons and jails and goes only after its targets. Without that cooperation, ICE sends teams of officers into communities who can arrest other illegal immigrants they encounter while pursuing their targets.

“If communities and jurisdictions would simply cooperate with us, you would likely not see ICE in your communities,” Mr. Wolf said.

[Pants-of-dog]

To quote your post: “It was an implied assumption in your argument that most of the undocumented migrants were criminals.”

Yes, exactly.

And since the difference between an implied assumption and a claim are obvious, I accept your clarification.

There are no racist aspects of my argument. Immigration laws should be enforced, and especially criminal undocumented aliens deported, race is irrelevant. It’s the racists of the Left that want to make everything about race, not the equalitarian Conservatives.

Then show me a single “article” you posted that looks at white migrants.

And explain how this is not part of a racist agenda deliberately spread by Breitbrat colluding with the Trump administration.

And explain how it does not perpetuate the disproven implied assumption that undocumented migrants cause crime.

[Drlee]

There are no racist aspects of my argument. Immigration laws should be enforced, and especially criminal undocumented aliens deported, race is irrelevant. It’s the racists of the Left that want to make everything about race, not the equalitarian Conservatives.

Sorry. Not buying it. The exact argument was made in the case of the Fugitive Slave Act. It was not about race or slavery, just the law. Sell that shit somewhere else.

[Unthinking Majority]

Your odd worship of law notwithstanding,

I don't "worship the law", but I know that the rule of law is much better than large-scale criminal activity, because you end up with the problems we see here. There are sometimes unjust laws and gov policies, and those should be changed, and you do that via protest and voting. The child-seperation policies are a good example of laws and policies that need to be changed and public pressure to do so.

A great way to turn the US into developing world crime-riddled chaos is for people to only follow the laws they like and ignore the ones they don't. Same thing with the race riots. The crux of that problem largely involves cops not following the law and abusing people, and the laws keeping cops accountable not being enforced.

the law in the US will not be followed for the foreseeable future. And this is because the system as it is right now makes people money.

Exactly. Including the politicians. It is corruption. The solution lies in severely restricting the flow of money from the rich and corporations to politicians. Trump and Biden will do nothing about that. Sanders would have, which is a reason why I support him.

[Unthinking Majority]

I didn't bother to read most of your post, because I've never argued that most undocumented aliens are criminals, in the sense of violating the law other than entering or remaining in the country illegally. Mind, if someone was to argue that most undocumented aliens have engaged in identity theft or falsification of documents I'd give that a look since that makes sense, but at the moment I can't say that's true one way or another.

Those who have broken the law and should be punished via the appropriate penalties as outlined in the law include:

- Employers knowingly hiring workers without legal authorization to work in the country
- Employers abusing or threatening workers and using their illegal status as leverage to exploit/harass them
- Employers not paying proper taxes to gov, or paying legal wages etc
- People who willfully enter the country illegally
- People who legally visit the country and illegally overstay without valid reason outlined in the law (like being sick in a hospital)
- People who work in the US without legal authorization
- People who commit fraud via identity theft, tax evasion etc.
- People who commit illegal human trafficking (including kidnapping and sex trafficking)
- People who commit illegal drug trafficking or import other contraband, money laundering etc.
- ICE and other enforcement officers who illegally abuse their authority, including assault, unlawful detention, and denial of legal rights.
- People who aid and abet any of the above

[Pants-of-dog]

... the rule of law is much better than large-scale criminal activity, because you end up with the problems we see here.

Can you explain what you mean by this in terms of current undocumented migrants in the US?

A great way to turn the US into developing world crime-riddled chaos is for people to only follow the laws they like and ignore the ones they don't. Same thing with the race riots. The crux of that problem largely involves cops not following the law and abusing people, and the laws keeping cops accountable not being enforced.

Are you referring to ICE here?

[Rich]

Nation states and national citizenship is inherently unfair and racist. I'm happy enough living in Britain, but if I really wanted to live in the United States Monaco or Timbuktu I would happily treat their citizenship, residency and immigrant laws with total and utter contempt if I could get away with it. Even in the case of Britain I put loyalty to my friends, what ever their race, what ever their nationality above loyalty to my country.

My beef with the left and the pro immigration conservative and corporate establishment is their dishonesty. They keep pushing the lie that immigration makes the indigenous population richer. It doesn't. Yes, yes we know there is no fixed lump of labour, there is however a fixed lump of land and other natural resources. Population increase makes the average existing citizen and resident poorer than that they otherwise would be. But it also increases inequality. The large owners of land, property, business and capital get richer. The lower classes get poorer, the middle classes often have the illusion of increasing prosperity from immigration, due to rising house prices and cheap nanny's gardeners and cleaners, but in the long term it depresses the prosperity and quality of their children and grand children

[Unthinking Majority]

Can you explain what you mean by this in terms of current undocumented migrants in the US?

The status quo isn't working and has caused many problems, and has been an injustice to a lot of people. Simply putting our heads in the sand isn't a workable solution.

Are you referring to ICE here?

I'm referring to everyone. Bad actors who don't follow the law need to be penalized.

"Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of man will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice without constraint." - Alexander Hamilton

[Unthinking Majority]

My beef with the left and the pro immigration conservative and corporate establishment is their dishonesty. They keep pushing the lie that immigration makes the indigenous population richer. It doesn't. Yes, yes we know there is no fixed lump of labour, there is however a fixed lump of land and other natural resources. Population increase makes the average existing citizen and resident poorer than that they otherwise would be. But it also increases inequality. The large owners of land, property, business and capital get richer. The lower classes get poorer, the middle classes often have the illusion of increasing prosperity from immigration, due to rising house prices and cheap nanny's gardeners and cleaners, but in the long term it depresses the prosperity and quality of their children and grand children

If the US actually needs or needed more agriculture workers etc, just import more legally. Population increase helps the economy. More labour means more production and more consumption.

The worst solution is having them come in illegally and stay without status. They have no rights, they make below minimum wage, they're abused, they are put in an impoverished underclass, they have to hide and live in fear, they are resented by the domestic population and discriminated and racism increases, and the social fabric has been torn as we've seen.

And then stuff like massive fraud occurs, ID theft etc, tax evasion etc. The migrants who follow the rules and leave or enter when they're supposed to or have their immigration applications denied and follow the rules resent it and lose out. It's just a whole bunch of BS. Get it all on the books.

[Drlee]

If the US actually needs or needed more agriculture workers etc, just import more legally. Population increase helps the economy. More labour means more production and more consumption.

Powerful people don't want this. For the very reasons you just stated.

[Unthinking Majority]

Powerful people don't want this. For the very reasons you just stated.

What do u mean?

[Drlee]

The farmers vote as a block. The day of the local motel is over. The hospitality market (which employs ton of illegals) is more and more owned by corporate interests. Meat packing, so often the focus of the few raids we have, are owned by powerful interests.

The short answer is that we have come to enjoy our virtual slaves.

Look. POFO is not a repository for very smart people. These captains of industry are very smart and just fine with Trump's demonizing illegals. They don't much care about the wall. Where they draw the line is at his actually doing anything substantial about illegal immigration. Let ICE raid a few major hotels and watch the senate on both sides start talking about "much needed immigration reform". Just the threat of a major push on marketplace enforcement would stagger the economy.

Please remember that we are not talking about some dude who just swam the Rio Grande.

The typical undocumented immigrant had lived 15 years in the United States in 2017, up from seven years in 1995, according to a new report from the Pew Research Center. It’s the highest number of years since Pew started tracking that data.

70% of adult illegals have been here over a decade.

You see how this completely changes the dialog? Are these the illegals that the racist Doug64 wants to talk about? Be honest. Is this who you think about when you think undocumented aliens? Are these the guys trying to eek out an existence? Increasingly they are from Asia; now the largest single group.

8% of children born in the US are born to undocumented aliens. Pretty close to one in 10! There are 4.8 million American born children born to illegal aliens. More than 1 in 20 Americans is here illegally. 3.4 million undocumented aliens own homes. Care to put all of those on the market in short order. Last year, a banner year for home sales, showed 693,000 homes sold. Think again about that 3.4 million.

When Arizona got tough with workplace enforcement the city up the road, Tucson, saw a jump in homes listed, a drop in home prices, and entire apartment complexes empty as illegals fled Arizona. Nearly one in five hospitality workers are illegals. Almost that percentage of construction workers.

The cold hard fact of life is that if all of the illegals left tomorrow it would simply destroy our economy and throw us into a deep depression. If they left their minor children behind, and many would of course, there would be a disaster of Biblical proportions.

Seriously. Were you aware that they numbers were so large and the impact so obviously extreme? Seriously?

The US, even during a pandemic, does not suffer from a shortage of jobs. It suffers from a shortage of good paying jobs. Were you aware that 42.4% of American workers earn less than $15.00 per hour. Hard working, motivated workers earning less than the poverty rate for a family of four. And the official US poverty rate is a joke. Can you raise a family of four on $26,000 a year where you live? Rent on a two bedroom apartment where I live would eat up half of that. Are these the people you are talking about?

Republicans do not honor work. They sneer at it. The idolize rich people and fuck anybody who things that work is honorable and should be treated as such. There is no way to treat a minimum wage job as honorable.

So is this what you had in mind @Unthinking Majority ? I hope it was because it that would make you one of perhaps 5% of Americans that have a clue about any of this.